Does this 64 oz Haviland Pitcher have a name other than Ranson (since it has gold trim)?

[goaldeelocks]

As far as I can tell, this is the same as the 64 oz Ranson Water pitcher I see on the R site. But is there a different identification for when it has gold trim? It's 7 7/8 inches high.

 (of course, if I'm missing something and it isn't Ranson please let me know!)

[msgood2shoe · Accepted solution]

Ranson is the name given to this shape with no gold so it's not correct to refer to your piece as Ranson. Schleiger gave different Blank numbers (no pattern names) when a plain blank had gold decoration. There is more than 1 "Blank 1" with gold applied in different ways.  I think yours might be Blank 25, though it's difficut to tell with serving pieces, especially hollow ware pieces.  

https://www.replacements.com/webquote/h__sch25.htm

[goaldeelocks]

Thank you, @msgood2shoe - and sorry to take so long to get back to you. I was waiting until I got on my real computer, as opposed to phone) to check out the link you provided and compare to my new (used) Haviland pattern id book. With your help, I think I do understand better this whole issue of blanks and pattern names. I do think the reference you gave looks closest (Schleiger 25).

In the book I had seen (pg 146) a plate in section titled " (Blank 1) - Gold Trim 24", with the first plate being solid white with gold all around the rim and that plate was labeled simply "Ranson", with lots of other plates with o identifications (names, Schleiger and H numbers). I thought that looked close so went with that, although I didn't understand what the "Gold Trim 24" meant.

Section in book after that is labeled "Ranson (Blank 1) - Gold Trim 426" and the Schleiger 25 you found wasn't shown until the second page, after some flowered patterns, so I didn't see it.

Whew! This is HARD! I think I'll just continue on with using generic Ranson in title to refer to the basic shape and go with that, don't think anybody would be misled. Kinda like using Juliana on every D&E piece because people think it's synonymous. I can't think many people would be searching for "Gold Trim 426", although I will add the Schleiger 25 identifier and the Gold Trim 426 somewhere in details.

Thank you again for your ongoing help (and patience).

P.S. I love the Haviland, A Pattern Identification Guide! It's so much easier than wading through online photos. I was very lucky to get a used book that's pretty much like new (spending a lot of time just browsing all the pretties though)

[goaldeelocks]

@msgood2shoe - I've been browsing the R site some more and I'm thinking the gold trim on this 424 blank looks closest to mine. (sorry, was too late to edit my original overly long post). I'm definitely overthinking this, info already "good enough".

https://www.replacements.com/webquote/h__h1965_s2.htm?rplSku=6904128

[msgood2shoe]

I'm not familiar with the book you referenced.  I use Arlene Schleiger's first 5 books and then use R to see the pattern in use.  It took me a while to understand how everything worked with Schleiger numbers.  This site might help you understand the terms and how Alrene cataloged the patterns

http://havilandonline.com/schleiger.htm

BTW, when it comes to serving pieces, it can be a bit confusing as it doesn't seem that Haviland had as many different blanks for their serving peices as they had for their plates.  And as I said before, hollow ware pieces like pitchers and covered pieces, are the most difficult. 

And I'm not sure I made myself clear, Ranson is really the just the name of the Blank 1 with no decals or gold trim.  If it is has a decal then it is called "Blank 1" as part of the description of the pattern.  When you read the page I linkes to above, what I just said might make more sense  🙂

[msgood2shoe]

In reading the link I gave you above, I see it doesn't do as good a job of explaining how Schleiger numbers were developed.

Mrs Schleiger cataloged "blanks" based first on what they looked like with out any decor, either decal or gold trim.   Then pieces with no decals but gold trim applied in a certain fashion were cataloged as blanks as well, with a different number from the undecorated blanks, and in her books she references back to the completely undecorated blank number in her description of the blank.  Different blank numbers are assigned to pieces that have gold trim versus pieces that don't.  And a different blank number is assigned if the gold is applied differently from another blank. 

From there, she starts with a piece with  a decal in a certain color combination, that is assigned a number, when she finds another example of either the same decal on a different blank, or in another color combination, but the exact same decal, a letter was assigned to it after the original pattern number.  For example, if she designated a pattern as No 36, but then found it on a different blank it would be No 36A.  Each new variation of blank and decal color was given a new letter. 

Her description ofNo 36 is "Blank 5. Large bright blue flowers resembling clematis with petals touched with white, green and pink.  Bright pink flowers resembling honeysuckles with petals  touched with white, green and a bit of blue.  Leaves and stems bright green faintly touched with blue and pink.  Very colorful." 

And No 36A is described as "Blank 3. Same as 36 blutblank and colors different.  Large flower resembling clematis in shades of grayist lavender and pink.  Pink honeysuckles touched with pale green.  Pale green leaves touched with pink.  Not colorful." 

I hope that helps clear things up a bit more. 

[goaldeelocks]

@msgood2shoe Thank you, and I'll spend some serious time studying everything you wrote (and will copy and save it for future reference too!). I have actually gone to the library and read at least one of the Schleiger books so was familiar with her system (although not the nuances you are teaching me).

As for the book I'm referencing, it's published by Replacements, Ltd (Bob Page, Dale Frederiksen, and Dean Six) and has a discussion of both the Schleiger id system and the Replacements system.  I only received this book a few days ago. Their description of their (Replacements) id system says they identify first by factory assigned pattern name, if one exists. Next choice is to use Schleiger number if one exists. Without either of those, they then create a "Replacements/number". Somehow I haven't yet found a reference to them using Schleiger numbers to identify no-gold/gold  versions of blanks. 

But, as I mentioned in earlier note - they show a photo of a gold trimed plate on Blank 1 identified simply as "Ranson" with the one next to it as "Schleiger 520" --- at beginning of section "Ranson (Blank 1 ---Gold Trim 24)".  I'll have to study both book info and Schleiger detail to get my head around all this. But I will!! And more thanks!!