Payment Dispute; Bank Card Charge Back, transaction not recognized by buyer.

[va-8501]

Does anyone have direct experience with this type of payment dispute? (Scam)

I got a "payment dispute; buyer does not recognize the transaction"

Ebay asks me to "Respond  with proof of delivery to the buyer"

Ebay already has the proof, it's automatically there, I print my labels through ebay.

Ebay says I have to authorize giving the tracking info to the buyer's bank.

Who is the buyer's bank?  Ebay says they can't tell me.

I replied to the dispute and submit the tracking information.  That was the only easy part, everything popped up automatically.

I tell ebay I also want to submit some additional messages between me and the buyer as further proof that shows the buyer agreed to the transaction.

Prior to the sale the buyer haggled with me on shipping charges.  Then immediately after the transaction the buyer asked for a shipping discount after paying what we agreed on.  

I replied "no, but since you don't seem happy I will give you a full refund if you want to cancel, just request to cancel the order before I ship the item."

Buyer replied "Sorry for any trouble, I will be happy with it".

Ebay rep told me, a feature to upload additional proof to prove my case is not available, but they're working on it.

Then ebay tells me, even though I have proven the item was delivered to the correct address and I 'qualify' for seller protection, the buyer's bank could still side with the buyer.  In that case the entire transaction amount plus a $20 dispute fee will be deducted from my managed payments balance or if that is insufficient will be taken from my checking account. 

Me: "WHAT??  Did I do something wrong?"

eBay: "No you did everything right, you will be covered by seller protection, this is just how the process works, all financial institutions that handle payments do it this way"

Me:  "NO, not true, I've been doing this for 20 years, and up until I was FORCED into managed payments, paypal didn't do it this way."

I asked ebay what the timing of the final decision is?  They didn't know, maybe 30 days, very unsure about when the final decision would be coming.  

I asked ebay if I would get any advance warning of the deductions just to make sure I have sufficient funds in my checking account?  All Ebay said is they would send me an email as it happens. 

That didn't answer my question, I asked how many days after the email is sent before they take the funds?

Again, ebay was very unsure of the timing, they said MAYBE 24 hours but they didn't really know.

I just looked at the pertinent policy statements on ebay's site relative to my exact situation:

"If eBay determines that the item was successfully delivered or picked up:

• We will not seek reimbursement from the seller for the disputed amount, even if the payment institution decides that the buyer is owed a refund; and
• We will waive or refund the seller's dispute fee"

Two ebay reps told me ebay would seek reimbursement from me by automatically taking the disputed amount, and then I will have to 'appeal' to get it back.  Even though I qualify for seller protection.

Does anyone have any first hand experience with a dispute like this?

I've been selling on ebay for 20 years.  I got forced into managed payments about a year ago.  Before that I used paypal.  I had two bank card charge backs in all that time and paypal didn't ask me to submit the tracking information, they had it, just like ebay does and they submitted it.  They didn't charge any fee to dispute the cases, they never took any money from my accounts.  They wouldn't even tell me the final outcome, they told me not to worry about it as I was covered.  The notices I received were for information purposes only and clearly said I didn't have to take any action.  That's what I call a managed payment system.

Ebay's managed payment system only manages the transactions to get ebay's pound of flesh as fast as possible at the least cost.  When the seller has a problem, they're pretty much on their own.

[mam98031]

You aren't doing yourself any favors by still comparing MP with PP.  That will only cause you more stress.  We now have to deal with MP and there is no going back unfortunately.

I've been doing a lot of complaining about this process the last several months.  Ebay does have some types of payment disputes that allow for more information by the seller to be entered, but they haven't gotten it to every type yet.  I have no logical reason as to why, I just know that to be the case.

And yes you should be covered under seller protection on this problem.  Ebay however has a bit of a crazy way of doing these whenever a Chargeback is in play.  What Ebay has been doing is when a Chargeback closes out and it is in the favor of the buyer, the buyer gets refunded by the seller and the seller is charged a $20 dispute fee.  They have been doing this EVEN when it is clear that they should have been covered by Seller Protection.  Then Ebay expected the seller to file an Appeal for the reason that it should have been covered under seller protection.  The appeal should rule for the seller and the seller gets their money back from Ebay [not the buyer].

Now when I found that out, I asked a few times as to what the heck was Ebay doing here and why was it up to the seller to go through all that extra work.

A couple months ago Ebay sent out an email [10/13/21] .  It has a strange title on it "Improved shipping label experience, new payout timing options, and more".  Go to your My Messages and see if you can find it.

In that email they talk about seller protection and this strange process I described above should be going away.  They should be protecting sellers the first time through.

As to a refund for the buyer that you ask about.  That is why Ebay holds some funds from the seller.  So if they have to refund the buyer, there will be funds in which to do so.  The held funds would be used to refund the buyer.

[va-8501]

Thanks for the reply.  You describe exactly what one ebay phone rep described.  But the ebay page for payment disputes says that ebay will not seek reimbursement from the seller for transactions that already qualified for seller protection as mine does.  I called another ebay rep to ask which is correct, will ebay take the money from me first, or they they will not?  Ebay rep said yes. 

I asked yes to which one?  Like asking if she is tall or short?  Yes.

I gave the buyer some nasty feedback and sent a few nasty messages.  The buyer just replied and apologized saying that her credit card was stolen and somehow the thief got into her ebay account, placed several orders, not just mine, but had all those orders shipped to the buyer's home.  What thief would do that?  She admits receiving these orders including mine, and seems to think she should keep them and not have to pay.  The buyer then admits that my transaction was a legitimate one and asks for my patience while the 'authorities' work it out.   

Stall tactic.

My wife and I have been ebay selling for 20 years.  Wife has a rare neurologic condition that causes severe acute episodes of head pain that gets triggered by stress.  It's time to quit. 

I already put a pause on all selling for a month, both my managed payment account and checking account have a zero balance.  Ebay hasn't put any hold on my account yet. I already deleted the only alternate payment method, paypal, and closed my paypal account.  The only remaining financial link I have left to ebay is the $0 balance checking account that I am going to close tomorrow.  I've already consulted with my bank and they advised me to close the checking account and guaranteed that they would have my back in the event ebay tries to debit the closed account.  My bank agrees that ebay, acting as a payment processor that authorized the credit card transaction should also be the liable party in such a dispute.  I'm going to start the process to close my ebay account tomorrow too.  I know ebay says the account stays open for 30 to 60 days, and they will take necessary action to get any funds owed by me.  I don't know how they will do that, I guess I might find out.

[vintagecraze50]

Normally these unauthorized charge disputes are COVERED WITH SELLER PROTECTION. I  have had a few of these since MP has been the processor. You must show that the item was delivered to the address on file with ebay as to the customers address which should match the baddress on their credit card. Now, if this item was mailed to the recipients address verified on their Ebay account AND THEIR CREDIT CARD, THEN THE BUYER IS FULL OF THANKSGIVING TURKEY. 

[vintagecraze50]

These bank card disputed take sometimes over a month or more to resolve with the cc companies because they are OVERLOADED AND UNDERSTAFFED.  Do not worry about that nonsense. They must get ten thousand of these daily. Regardless of how long the bank takes to get it done. You should be covered by seller protection.

[vintagecraze50]

Latest news is that credit card chargebacks cause extreme neurological problems for sellers. Complain to your congressman to have them change the rules for how they handle payment disputes.

[va-8501]

I print my labels on ebay.  I don't ship unless I'm sure that the ship to address is the buyers verified address.  When I responded to the dispute the tracking info with 'delivered' automatically popped up and all I had to do is click on 'submit'.  Next screen showed "no further action required"  and a statement that says the transaction qualifies for seller protection.  The annoyance is that 2 ebay phone reps told me that even with seller protection, if the buyer's bank rules in favor of the buyer, the refund amount plus $20 dispute fee must come out of my account.  Then I have to do an appeal process to get it back which both said I would since I qualify for seller protection.  Crazy, why do all that if they know ahead of time that I'm covered.  It forces me to watch my payment account balance and checking account balance to make sure I have enough to cover any debits.  I don't want to get stuck with an overdraft fee from my bank for insufficient funds if I get blindsided on the timing of the final decision.  Ebay reps can't predict within 90 days when that will happen.  They also were very vague about giving me any advance notice of the debit so I can make sure there are sufficient funds.

[va-8501]

Off topic, but I find nothing humorous in your response.  The electrical shock like pain my wife is experiencing is described by neurologists as the worst pain a person can experience.  The nick name for the condition is called the 'suicide disease'.  5 years and getting progressively worse, nerve blocks, anti-seizure meds with nasty side effects; nothing humorous about it.

[mam98031]

@va-8501 

"I gave the buyer some nasty feedback and sent a few nasty messages. "  Why in the world would you do that???  That isn't good and something you need to steer clear of doing for a variety of reasons.  One it is POOR business.  Every transaction on Ebay is a business transaction, there are no personal transactions on Ebay.  You need to remember that.  It is in poor form to make assumptions and act as if the buyer has made some personal attack on you, which they have not.  Your reactions to this buyer may cause this buyer to leave you negative FB [which sellers can't under any circumstance] because of the way you are talking to them.

And to top everything else off, leaving a negative comment in a buyer's FB is a BREACH of the Ebay selling rules.  You can get in trouble for doing that.  All it takes is for the buyer to report you or for Ebay's bot to find it on their own.

NO you should NOT wait for "authorities" to work things out.  You need to get that information to Ebay ASAP.  I'm not exactly sure how you could do that, but if you use social media, go to Ebay for business on Facebook.  Tell them what the buyer recently shared with you.  ALL of it.  They need to know this.

https://twitter.com/askebay?lang=en

https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness/

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/How-do-I-contact-Customer-Support/m-p/32016431#M1783851

And you are right, the buyer's explanation is a bit fishy.  Someone getting ahold of her credit card will not in turn give them access to the buyer's Ebay account.  And if she were hacked, she needs to notify Ebay security right away.

I had a buyer with a similar excuse once.  I sent her an email, completely polite and professional.  Advising her to contact Ebay ASAP regarding someone accessing her account so they can help her to get things cleaned up and she should notify her local police department about her CC theft along with her CCC.  Then I'd go on to say something like, I will notify Ebay that your account has been hacked per our recent emails with each other and that your CC has been compromised, Ebay may block your account for awhile while you get this all worked out for security reasons.

OMG you wouldn't believe how fast my buyer retracted her statements to me.  It was so funny.

Ebay doesn't put a hold on your account when you have an outstanding claim.  They hold enough money to cover the transaction if it were to be refunded to the buyer.  You can see this on your Seller Hub, hover over the Payment tab, from the drop down menu that will appear, select SUMMARY.  Lots of great info there.

You can file a police report and give them copies of all those emails too.  If you do that, make sure you give Ebay your Police report number.

I'm not sure why you are feeling compelled to potentially causing yourself issues that are simply unnecessary.  But it is your choice to make.  And you are correct, you will NOT be allowed to close the account that has this open claim on it.  That Ebay would never do.  You are also correct that if there is a claim that has to be paid by the seller and they have no place to go and get those funds from, they will seek other means in order to get the funds.  They do use Collection agencies and they can and will affect your Credit Report.  But you don't even need to temp that from happening, so I can't say I understand why you are going the route you are choosing.

BTW your bank was incorrect regarding the Chargeback process.  It is more complicated than that and unless they know the laws that govern the Money processors they can't accurately advise you.  But what little you have said here is incorrect.

[mam98031]

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@va-8501 wrote:

I print my labels on ebay.  I don't ship unless I'm sure that the ship to address is the buyers verified address.  When I responded to the dispute the tracking info with 'delivered' automatically popped up and all I had to do is click on 'submit'.  Next screen showed "no further action required"  and a statement that says the transaction qualifies for seller protection.  The annoyance is that 2 ebay phone reps told me that even with seller protection, if the buyer's bank rules in favor of the buyer, the refund amount plus $20 dispute fee must come out of my account.  Then I have to do an appeal process to get it back which both said I would since I qualify for seller protection.  Crazy, why do all that if they know ahead of time that I'm covered.  It forces me to watch my payment account balance and checking account balance to make sure I have enough to cover any debits.  I don't want to get stuck with an overdraft fee from my bank for insufficient funds if I get blindsided on the timing of the final decision.  Ebay reps can't predict within 90 days when that will happen.  They also were very vague about giving me any advance notice of the debit so I can make sure there are sufficient funds.

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Having a verified address use to mean something in PayPal YEARS ago, but it hasn't for a good decade or more.  And now that we are all in MP, it means nothing.  As a seller, you need to always, without exception, ship to the address that the buyer gives you to ship to when they pay.  Doing anything else will void your Seller Protection.  Verified addresses will do nothing for you.

You only get charged the $20 if you LOSE the Chargeback.

As we have previously discussed, you should have some funds on hold in your MP account to cover this chargeback that has not yet been closed.  In my previous post I told you where you can see how much they are holding for these purposes.  They do not hold enough funds to cover the $20 fee for losing the chargeback.

You can put an alternate funding source on your MP account if you want.  I have my Visa card.  So if they needed some funds on something and I failed to see this happening then it will go on my Visa.

However if your MP account goes into a negative balance.  Ebay emails you and tells you that and gives you a few days [stated in the email] to get new sales that can cover the negative balance.  But by the date in the email if it isn't covered, then they will look to your bank account or your back up funding source to cover it.

There really is no reason for any seller that is monitoring their money like they should to not know they have a negative balance.  They can see it on the Summary page and Ebay does send an email.

[mam98031]

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@va-8501 wrote:

Off topic, but I find nothing humorous in your response.  The electrical shock like pain my wife is experiencing is described by neurologists as the worst pain a person can experience.  The nick name for the condition is called the 'suicide disease'.  5 years and getting progressively worse, nerve blocks, anti-seizure meds with nasty side effects; nothing humorous about it.

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You are so correct.  I get that pain in my arms and hands sometimes.  Docs don't know what is causing it.  I can only imagine how bad that would be in my head.  My heart goes out to your wife.  That is a tough thing to live with.  And 5 years is a LONG time to be in pain.  

[vintagecraze50]

Many times the bank will favor the buyer in these BOGUS, disputes. It is just the way these credit card companies deal with these things. Most of the time thery do not do squat in investigating these cases, they just let the buyer have their way. LET these cases sit there for months on end before they get their fannies on them. Ebay knows this, and that is why they have the seller protection for these when they are the unauthorized charge ones. 

[vintagecraze50]

No offense in my comment. I feel for you and your wife and others here who have to deal with the customers who use their credit card like a gun to steal merchandise. It’s an added stress that none of us need here, but the problem lies with the way the credit card companies deal with these issues. That is why I commented on some reform in the way these are handled. The way they do it now is almost unethical to sellers.

[vintagecraze50]

Good prevention tactic mam. I usually also message the buyer asking them what happened and what you posted I will copy for future use with these.

[mam98031]

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@vintagecraze50 wrote:

Good prevention tactic mam. I usually also message the buyer asking them what happened and what you posted I will copy for future use with these.

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And it works too, at least in my experience.  The key is to stay polite, act like it is something you just need to do in the hopes of helping the buyer.  It is a very passive aggressive approach, but it can really work.  I've used the approach in several different types of situations when buyers are clearly not telling the truth.  Act like I buy into it and then let them know what I will do to help.  Notify Ebay, USPS or whatever is appropriate for the lie the buyer is trying to tell.