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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

Over the years I have tried to sell a number of PGX rated comics with very little to no success.  Similiar comics rated CGC were no issue for me to sell.  I have contemplated taking the comics out of their PGX case and sell them outright as a raw ungraded comic.  Please give me your two cents worth on what you think of my question.  It may be kind of hard to believe taking a book out of it's case but when buyers seem to "turn up their nose at the PGX rating I feel it may be a good option.

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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

From what I've learned in my own experience, purchase of books by both CGC and PGX and the reasoned opinions of those that comment on various forums about this issue, I've found there's been both justified and unjustified criticism about both services.



I've found far more about CGC, but that may be because they've been around longer. I've looked at many debates on this issue - paid more attention to the ones that offered facts such as photos of CGC and PGX graded books - and I've found both have their flaws.



The most unreasoning criticism seems to be coming from CGC supporters that do not want any competition in the back issue comic book grading market. I think that competition can only be good overall. Being biased toward one for the other is a blindness that may lead you to make some bad choices in buying your books. I see no problem at all at letting the graded books speak for themselves.



If you want to be loyal to one or the other that's a matter of choice. I choose to take advantage of both and aim my criticism at both in hopes of making BOTH of them better.

Message 46 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

Good Advice, Tommy

Message 47 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?


I've found far more about CGC, but that may be because they've been around longer. I've looked at many debates on this issue - paid more attention to the ones that offered facts such as photos of CGC and PGX graded books - and I've found both have their flaws.




OR maybe it's because PGX doesn't want you to know anything about their organization.  CGC is prominent, recognizable, and is active in the community.  You can SEE their physical location.  You can meet their employees at conventions.  You know who is looking at your books and their backgrounds.  None of the same can be said about PGX.

Message 48 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

danp2124
Enthusiast

 I've read the posts on the differences in CGC and PGX and u can definitely see the pro CGC people. To them there is no substitute and all others are crap and they will put them down anyway they can.


 


 Then there are the others like myself who can see the advantages and disadvantages of both.


 


 I've have submitted comics to both companies and I find for modern books PGX to be as good if not harder than CGC in grading, but on the other hand my older books (silver age or older) will always go to CGC for grading.

Message 49 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

PLEASE CHECK OUT THIS LETTER BY MARK ZAID, BEFORE WAS TO BE CONSIDERED AS A MEMBER OF THE CGC ADVISORY BOARD.



ANY DISCUSSION?




I have spent the better part of two hours carefully drafting this post, and even more time thinking it through. It is but just the first of several substantive commentaries that I will post regarding CGC and my perception of the company and the current climate. I had initially intended to first post a response to Steve Borock’s latest thread but that will require a greater amount of time that I simply do not yet have given my legal workload. I do intend to address Steve’s remarks at a later date.



I even thought about not posting these comments in light of the fact that I have offered my time to serve on the forthcoming CGC Advisory Board. Perhaps my critical comments, even if offered in a constructive manner with the complete intent of attempting to better CGC and its services (as most of you know, given my collection, I only lose out by a loss of confidence in CGC graded books), will result in my not being chosen for the board. But if I waited to post my comments until after I found out that I was not chosen it could be construed that my comments were nothing more than sour grapes. That I cannot have, nor will I stifle my opinions. I would hope that CGC would see a value in actually having someone on its board that is constructively critical of its policies and positions. Time will tell. I will have no regrets either way.



Its name is the “Comics Guaranty, LLC”, and it is otherwise fondly known as the “Comics Guaranty Corporation” or CGC. But what exactly does this name mean? What does CGC actually “guaranty”? We should probably first start out at what exactly is a “guaranty”.



Essentially, in layman’s terms, to provide a “guaranty” means to stand behind your work or services. Does CGC do that? The uniformed might think so. But from what I can tell the only guarantee that CGC provides is to advertise its promotional rhetoric. Why do I proclaim that? Let’s examine CGC’s statements and claims.



On its website, CGC describes itself in the “About CGC” section has having “a proven and respected commitment to integrity, accuracy, consistency and impartiality in grading collectibles” that has made it a leader in its field. Under “Grading Benefits”, it asserts that under its “Expert Restoration Check”:



Part of the CGC expert grading team's review of your comic book is to perform a thorough restoration check. When detected, restoration is specifically noted on the grading label, or visible through a different colored label. Notice the disclaimer, despite the assertion it is performing an “expert restoration check”, there is the caveat of “when detected”.



Why does CGC claim its product or services “Increase Confidence Among Buyers and Sellers”? It is surprisingly not because of its “expert restoration check.” Instead, it is solely due to its claim that it has created “a consistent grading standard and a tamper-evident protective holder”.



If you review CGC’s stated history of “Why we are here”, there are numerous conclusory and great-sounding descriptive accolades of how it maintains a “proven standard of integrity”, a “commitment to hobby enrichment”, a desire to build trust, expertise, consensus, advantages for the collector and interest in our hobby. Nowhere in the discussion above is there a mention of CGC’s restoration check or any “guaranty”. Finally, at the bottom of the page, CGC notes it is generally “committed to expert restoration detection.”



What does CGC proclaim about its restoration service? In the Q & A section of its site, it states:



Q. How will I know if a comic has had restoration?



A. CGC has the industry's top team of restoration detection experts, led by Chris Friesen, Steve Borock, Mark Haspel and Paul Litch. The restoration check is an integral part of the CGC expert grading team's review of your comic book, and unlike other professional services which charge up to $100 for this service, it is included at NO EXTRA CHARGE in the CGC tier price you choose. When detected, restoration is specifically noted on the grading label, and is visible through a different colored label. CGC will assign restored books an apparent grade, which includes a description of light, moderate, or heavy restoration. This way a buyer will always know what they are getting with a CGC graded comic that has been restored.



Of course, we all know that Friesen is no longer with CGC (which is not the only out-of-date employment reference) so at the very least we can agree that CGC does not attempt to maintain an up-to-date website, except – thankfully – for the census. CGC has a “top team of restoration detection experts”, and even without Friesen’s presence on a daily basis (as Steve B. noted in his post CGC may contract out work to Friesen), I have no problem accepting this statement as true based on what I know of these gentlemen. But there again is the disclaimer of “when detected”. Apparently, CGC does not have the faith in its “restoration detection experts” even though it would have its customers hold that belief. That last sentence above, therefore, leaves a lot to be desired given the disclaimer.



So, what does CGC “Guaranty”? Again, let’s refer to CGC’s Q & A section wherein they clarify:



Q. Does CGC offer a grading guarantee?



A. Due to the fragile nature of comic books, CGC does not offer a grading guarantee. However, CGC does offer the following guarantee: a) CGC guarantees one pre-grader and two senior graders will review every comic book submitted for grading. b) CGC guarantees its holder to be free of defects. Defective holders will be replaced at no charge, except when it is determined (at CGC's sole discretion) that the holder was subjected to deliberate or unintentional abuse, or if damage is the result of storage in a hazardous environment. c) CGC guarantees that all books it certifies are authentic as described on the CGC grading label.



Mostly, CGC guarantees its process. What does c) mean? Here is the crucial ambiguity. It suggests that if CGC certifies a book as unrestored when it really is restored it guarantees that determination. Does it? I wish it were so but I daresay it is not. I wish I were wrong but I highly doubt it.



What it presumably means is that if there is an error on the label, i.e., an ASM #275 mislabeled as an ASM #277, CGC will correct their error. Or, in the case of a restored book being labeled unrestored, CGC will merely change the label designation. It will not, for example, reimburse you for any monies lost as a result of you buying a restored book based on the alleged expert detection services rendered by CGC, which is what you might reasonably expect from a company that guarantees its services.



How can we tell further what c) means? Well, just look at the label where CGC conveniently offers a more elaborate and detailed explanation as to its position regarding its guaranty, or lack thereof. There it states that “Clerical error with respect to the description or grade of a comic book that would be readily noticed on inspection will be corrected at no charge.” This makes clear my premise above is correct. But CGC goes even further in its clarification.



A restoration check has been performed on this book. Detected restoration is noted on this label in general or specific terms….A good faith effort is made to detect restoration, but CGC does not warrant its process or the results.



Why CGC does not bother to be as clear on its policy on its website is a legitimate question for which I have no answer. It should explain. And without a doubt, it should place this policy on its website for easy access to its customers and potential customers.



But just to confuse everybody so that it would imply to its customers that CGC actually does stand behind its restoration skills, it then notes on the label that with the lone exception of a book having slight CT or glue and still receiving a blue universal label, all other blue universal labels have all “been examined for restoration and none was found.” Obviously this statement is not accurate in its own right because the preceding caveat makes it plainly clear that no such guaranty is being made.



What exactly is going on here? Why is the “Guaranty” in CGC when, in fact, it fails to guarantee anything of substantive value? I know something of guarantees. As an attorney I never provide one. I, like most attorneys, make it perfectly clear to my clients that I cannot guarantee a specific result, particularly because there are always too many unknowns, i.e., what facts will arise, who the judge or jury might be, etc. Doctors also decline to provide guarantees, for good reason.



Who provides guarantees? Usually companies that provide some type of non-judgmental expert service. Let’s look at Midas mufflers, for example. Their website notes that:



In fact, we guarantee* all our work. And, we're known for our lifetime-guaranteed brakes, mufflers and shocks and struts. Our lifetime guarantee is valid for as long as you own your car.



Now, there are some limitations but we can probably all agree that Midas is generally standing behind its work. Why? Presumably because it considers its services more of a science than an art, which is what I believe restoration detection is. Grading is an art. Restoration detection is not.



Regardless of whether everyone agrees with my last analogy, and I can accept that this may be a topic for debate and I do not want this to become the focus of our discussion, the fact is that CGC – for some reason – is not willing to stand behind what is likely its most valuable commodity – its restoration detection service. Any company can grade a comic book. Not everyone can detect restoration.



Does that mean that mistakes cannot occur? Of course not. No company is perfect. A mistaken identification of a restored book as unrestored may occur, or someone may purposefully attempt to circumvent CGC’s restoration detection services and knowingly submit restored books. We know both situations have occurred with CGC. So what? Presumably these occasions are few and far in between. That is what we are continually told by CGC.



Steve Borock wrote in his latest Ewert missive on this very topic that:



As to CGC’s restoration detection ability; I know that we are the best team in the hobby, bar none. This is not a statement I make lightly but, it is a fact that I am very proud of. We probably have found more hard to detect restoration on books in the last 5 years then the people and experts in our hobby have found in the last thirty years. How many of you have bought comics before CGC opened that you believed to be unrestored, that came back from us in a purple restored label? Some of you remember what it was like before CGC and the internet. Honest collectors and dealers alike were unknowingly buying and selling restored books. Dishonest collectors and dealers were making money hand over fist. Undeclared restored books were being bought even from Sotheby’s and Christie’s auction house. Just ask Jerry Weist how many books now come back from CGC restored that were “inspected” and given a “clean bill of health” before the auctions. We are not perfect, we are human, and once in awhile something is going to get past us. Even with that, we are the best and safest insurance policy this hobby has ever seen. The graders are a group of hobbyists working very hard to make our hobby better for the reader, collector, seller, and investor. The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.



No matter how good we get, someone will always try new ways to get things past us, that’s what dishonest people do. But like a friend told me, “When you build your first mouse trap, someone is going to try and eventually figure out how to get past that trap, so you need to build a better trap.” That is what we are going to do. With the help of some people we know, it looks as if we are going to have a special scanning process that will allow us to match up comics to a scan within seconds. This will be costly and hurt our re-submissions, but it will protect the buyer and seller and help CGC “build a better mousetrap”.



Well then, if the mistaken identifications or deliberate circumvention of CGC’s expert restoration detection system are so infrequent, then why won’t CGC actually provide a genuine guarantee? Why do comic book dealers, who have nothing to do with CGC’s business, feel compelled to provide such a guarantee instead (see my other new thread on this very topic)? Frankly, I view these independent third-party guarantees not as a demonstration of dealer support of the trustworthiness of CGC’s services but as a recognition, or better yet an indication, of CGC’s failure to fulfil the expectations that it promotes and what our community deserves.



Based on the above I can only conclude that CGC is attempting to deliberately mislead its customers by inferring it stands behind its substantive services when it actually declines to do so. In fact, it openly encourages the misleading notion that we, the consumer, should have nothing more than faith in its services yet believe a guaranty exists. I find this discouraging to say the least, and I personally find it unacceptable.



The Comics Guaranty Corporation does not really exist. Certainly not in the manner in which it pretends to persuade us it does. Unless CGC is willing to stand behind some of its services, most notably its restoration detection, it should not use the word “Guaranty” in its name. When it really comes down to it, CGC is nothing more than the “Comics Grading Corporation” and that is how it should be identified and treated.


_________________________


Mark S. Zaid, Esq.


http://www.esquirecomics.com


Message 50 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

Ryan and Danny boy are burning the midnight oil here. Takes away time needed to "Marry" covers to pilfered books.

Message 51 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

I have absolutely no idea of why you say PGX books do not sell well on Ebay. I have sold many Silver Age PGX books for years and have never had any problem getting a decent price for them. They sell very well on Ebay, and I suspect they always will. Just remember, PGX overgrades by an average of 1.0 compared to that of CGC. The bidders respond by bidding accordingly to this, so everything evens out in the end. If you submit a book to PGX that PGX would give a 6.0 and that CGC would normally give a 5.0, they would end up selling for about the same price on Ebay. Thus, everything evens out.

Message 52 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

How is it throwing your hard earned cash down the drain when these PGX books sell so well on Ebay? That is the only criteria on which these graded books can be judged, period. So your opinion on PGX's standards becomes irrelevant. Ebay Bidders love slabbed books and will bid well on BOTH CGC and PGX, particularly if they are Silver Age or Key Bronze Age.

Message 53 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

BPCOMICS comments seem to be a shill for CGC...I would discount someone who seems SO passionate with no real complaints or experience buying PGX books.....sorry.

Message 54 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

Two cents from the average joe: In regards to the original question.



Does PGX bring down the value?



I believe that PGX (or CGC) ratings should not bring down themarket value of the book and more importantly, it should not bring the market value of the book up, either.



PGX/CGC provide accuracy to the grade of a book.



The market value of the book is determined by the grade, not the slab.



No one should have to pay for your PGX/CGC fees if you decide to send them in. That's on you. If you don't trust your own grading skills and decided to get a professional service to add accuracy to the grading so that you can offer a reasonable rate for the grade of the book. That should be your dime.



No one should pay more because a book is slabbed. Period.



That's what I believe about market value. Overall, I think that PGX/CGC lowers the ownership value of the comic. If I am going to pay good money for 32 pages of Simon and Kirby art, I want to see it, smell it. experience the book; not just look at the cover.







Message 55 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

Looking at the business side of things;buyers will accept with confidence the grades given by CGC. That gives the seller an edge because he can list a grade without argument.(This does not mean that the CGC opinion on a grade is more accurate than an experienced comic book collector or seller.) Most importantly the restoration check gives everyone involved peace of mind. That is a very good thing to have when buying an expensive book.

Message 56 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?


BPCOMICS comments seem to be a shill for CGC...I would discount someone who seems SO passionate with no real complaints or experience buying PGX books.....sorry.




Oh really?  Two can play that game.  I would discount someone who completely ignores all the legitimate concerns in this thread.  He may want to read the thread again because I have made NUMEROUS complaints about PGX.  I bet decojoker lives in Oregon...

Message 57 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

bryanb817
Enthusiast

I believe we'll be seeing a lot more credibility coming from PGX vs. CGC over the next few years.  Here's why.



I've recently been sending my comics to Classics Incorporated to have them pressed prior to having CGC grade them.  Last night, I received an email from Classics Incorporated indicating that they were purchased by CGC and that they would now be offering their pressing service through CGC starting in Feb. 2013.  Call me crazy, but doesn't that seem to take away a little of the unbiased grading we've come to depend upon from CGC?  I mean, starting in February, theoretically if you send your raw comic to CGC to be graded and they don't give you the grade you were hoping for, now they'll suddenly offer this additional service which they provide that will guarantee a higher grade?  Call me crazy, but that seems like a conflict of interest to me.


 


I've never used PGX before, but honestly since I'm still waiting on comics that I sent off to be graded six months ago, I'm willing to start using them.

Message 58 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

supa_lame
Enthusiast

Man, your post was great until the last sentence. If you start using PGX now because of this particular announcement you're either a) new to the hobby and haven't been following CGC since 2000 or b) you're honestly confused. Re-read this thread. PGX is scum, don't waste your money. They are not legit competition for CGC, never will be.

Message 59 of 176
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Does PGX Rating Bring Down The Value Of A Comic?

waamblem
Enthusiast

I don't mind PGX so much as I am sure they do just as good of work, but honestly, they do not carry value at all compared to a CGC graded book.  Please do not kid yourself here.  While a PGX book is still better than a non-slabbed book IMHO, it by no means carries the same value as an equally graded book. 

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