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abctoy · ‎07-19-2013

Been a collector for many years and finally took the plunge sending my Hulk #1 to CGC for grading. Spent almost $200 Performing a Huge Mistake. I have seen many comic graded by CGC over the years and mine should have graded at least a 3 but have seen 3.5-4.5 on a regular basis for the condition. Those clowns at CGC graded a 2.5. When contacted they would not even respond to my concerns. Awful customer service, quoting a 15 business day turn around (taking 23 business days) and Not responding to my concerns. Needless to say I am done with that "Business" and will Ballyhoo CGC nonsense till the day I die. Was leary when they started and now confirmation has been had. 1 last note, I dislike their changing the grading system that had been in place so long.

willielilly · ‎12-03-2013

I think sun_blaze is saying that grading a book should cost 1 price regardless of what its worth. I can kind of see where he is coming from. They are doing the same thing whether the book be an expensive book from the 60's or a cheaper book from the 90's. Its like charging a guy who owns a 120,000 dollar Porsche more for an oil change than a guy who has a 30,000 dollar Chevy. Both cars get 5 quarts of new oil and a new filter. Should the Porsche owner pay more?

beat_but_complete · ‎12-03-2013

willielilly wrote:
I think sun_blaze is saying that grading a book should cost 1 price regardless of what its worth. I can kind of see where he is coming from. They are doing the same thing whether the book be an expensive book from the 60's or a cheaper book from the 90's.

Sure, that'd be great, but it's not realistic. You really want CGC to treat your NM AF #15 the same way it does a book that came out last week? Plus, they're not exactly "doing the same thing whether the book be..." The AF # 15 would need a more extensive resto check then some cheap 90s book.
Another factor is the insurance CGC has to carry on your books while they have them. Obviously they don't want super expensive books sitting around in their vault, that just provides more opportunity for them to get damaged. They have to carry insurance just for this reason, to cover their butts, and I'm sure it ain't cheap. In this context, it makes sense to charge more for more expensive books, as CGC is taking more of a risk. If they ruin your book from last week, not a big deal, here's $50. If they ruin your NM AF # 15, the payout will be slightly higher.
If you want to send your books to someone who doesn't have a high-tech security system/vault for the books/big-time insurance, I'd suggest PGX.

willielilly wrote:
Its like charging a guy who owns a 120,000 dollar Porsche more for an oil change than a guy who has a 30,000 dollar Chevy. Both cars get 5 quarts of new oil and a new filter. Should the Porsche owner pay more?

Uh, yeah, he should. I think the above example actually proves my point. Do you want a guy whose only done oil changes on Ford Tauruses all his life to change the oil in your Porsche? Do you put the same oil/filter in a Taurus that you do a Porsche?

bpmcomics · ‎12-03-2013

Even more funny is the fact that the higher end sports car brands DO actually cost more for an oil change then a Ford Taurus. Terrible analogy there willie, not to mention the rest of your post was pretty bad.

fun_comics9857 · ‎12-03-2013

CGC has some high security system? Now you really gone fishing. You purchase your own insurance when you send in your books that is extra too.

Per CGC:

***In the event that CGC, at its sole discretion, determines that the fair market value is higher than the value stated by the submitter, CGC will move the comic book to the appropriate higher tier and the additional charge will be the responsibility of the submitter.

Now CGC determines market value? Seems that would be a conflict of interest right there.

And be sure to get your insurance:

•Be sure your package is properly registered and/or insured for delivery to CGC.

beat_but_complete · ‎12-03-2013

@sun_blaze9857 wrote:
CGC has some high security system? Now you really gone fishing.

Why do you even comment on CGC topics? Of course they have a high security system, have you ever seen pictures of their complex? Have you ever talked to someone whose been there? You can't even drop your books of at PGX because it's a house in a residential neighborhood, at CGC you don't even get through the front door without being buzzed in.

@sun_blaze9857 wrote:
You purchase your own insurance when you send in your books that is extra too.

You think I'm talking about postal insurance? Uff da. Also, you don't have to put insurance on your packages you know.

@sun_blaze9857 wrote:

Per CGC:

***In the event that CGC, at its sole discretion, determines that the fair market value is higher than the value stated by the submitter, CGC will move the comic book to the appropriate higher tier and the additional charge will be the responsibility of the submitter.

Now CGC determines market value? Seems that would be a conflict of interest right there.

CGC uses GPA. GPA is actual sales. How do you determine the worth of the books you send in? Lol, that's a joke, you couldn't even properly submit a book to CGC if you're life depended on it.

@sun_blaze9857 wrote:
And be sure to get your insurance:

•Be sure your package is properly registered and/or insured for delivery to CGC.

That just seems like common sense, so I can see why that would confuse you.

willielilly · ‎12-04-2013

Yes I expect CGC to handle my fresh off the shelf book and the AF #15 with the same care. Just because a book is new does that mean they can be careless with it? And yes an oil filter for a Porsche is essentially the same thing as a filter for a Taurus. Only difference is size and threading to screw it on. I stand by my statement. You use the same care for every process. A surgeon does not use "less care" as you put it when operating on a 25 year old person compared to a 80 year old person. Yes you know the 80 year old is more fragile but you take all the same precaurions to ensure both have a safe surgery. There is a standard to be used in everything my friend. Thats just the way it is.

fun_comics9857 · ‎12-04-2013

Well, I sure didn't report you last post. But this here you will find at CGC website:

DAMAGE OR LOSS IN TRANSIT. Due to their fragile nature, comic books can be damaged while in a CGC holder if improperly handled, stored or displayed. By using CGC’s products/services, you agree that CGC is not responsible for damage or loss whatsoever occurring during transit to or from CGC’s facility, or thereafter. The risk of damage or loss during transit and thereafter is entirely upon you. Unless CGC receives special delivery instructions from you, CGC will return books to you by carrier of its choice. If you wish to control your risk of damage or loss by transit, you should make arrangements to pick up your books directly at CGC’s facility.

EXCLUSION OF WARRANTIES/LIMITATION OF REMEDIES.

Although CGC intends to act with care to prevent damage, you acknowledge that handling and possession may cause damage to the comic books, including, but not limited to, the bending, ripping, cracking, or curling of pages associated with the shifting position of the comic books inside the holders. BY USING CGC’s PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, YOU AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT HOLD CGC OR ITS EMPLOYEES, MEMBERS, AFFILIATES, OR OFFICERS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE OR LOSS TO THE COMIC BOOKS OR TO YOU AS A RESULT OF ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE OR LOSS CAUSED IN WHOLE OR IN PART BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF CGC, ITS AFFILIATES OR EMPLOYEES. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THE RETURN OF CGC’s GRADING FEE OR THE REPLACEMENT OF A DEFECTIVE HOLDER SHALL BE YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY CAUSE OF ACTION TO THE EXTENT ALLOWED AGAINST CGC, ITS EMPLOYEES, MEMBERS, AFFILIATES, AND/OR OFFICERS. IN NO EVENT SHALL CGC BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY DAMAGES OR LOST PROFITS, EVEN IF CGC IS AWARE OF THE POTENTIAL FOR SUCH DAMAGES. YOU ALSO AGREE THAT CGC HAS OFFERED NO WARRANTIES COVERING ITS SERVICES (except the express limited guarantees specifically stated herein), EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND CGC SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON- INFRINGEMENT WITH RESPECT TO ITS SERVICES OR PRODUCTS. If you wish to seek any remedy to the extent allowed against CGC, you must notify CGC in writing within 5 days of the time that you become aware of the facts giving rise to such remedy. You agree that failure to provide such notice constitutes a waiver of such remedy. To the extent that a Court determines that any part of the foregoing provision is unenforceable, then the remaining parts of the provision shall survive.

THIS GUARANTEE REPLACES AND SUPERSEDES ALL OTHER WARRENTIES, EXPRESS OF IMPLIED, AND WHETHER OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS OR OTHERWISE. THE REMEDIES PROVIDED IN THIS AGREEMENT ARE EXCLUSIVE, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED IN THIS AGREEMENT, ALL OTHER REMEDIES AGAINST CGC, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE AND INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, ARE WAIVED.

THIS GUARANTEE SHALL BE GOVERNED BY AND CONSTRUED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA AS APPLIED TO TRANSACTIONS TAKING PLACE WHOLLY WITHIN FLORIDA BETWEEN FLORIDA RESIDENTS. CLAIMANTS UNDER THIS GUARANTEE HEREBY WAIVE TRIAL BY JURY AND EXPRESSLY CONSENT TO THE EXCLUSIVE PERSONAL AND SUBJECT-MATTER JURISDICTION OF THE STATE AND FEDERAL COURTS LOCATED IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SARASOTA, STATE OF FLORIDA, FOR ANY DISPUTE ARISING FROM OR RELATED TO THIS GUARANTEE.

Notwithstanding anything else contained in this Guarantee, in the event of loss or damage of your comic by CGC, CGC will only be responsible for the LESSER of the actual fair market value or the submitter declared value.

This Guarantee represents a clarification of prior and existing versions and in no way is intended to expand any rights.

Revised: 6/4/2012 http://www.cgccomics.com/grading/cgc-comics-guarantee.asp

This information is readily available on their website. Are you saying it's false?

beat_but_complete · ‎12-04-2013

@willielilly wrote:
Yes I expect CGC to handle my fresh off the shelf book and the AF #15 with the same care. Just because a book is new does that mean they can be careless with it?

You missed my point. I wasn't saying they don't handle Modern books with care, I'm saying the AF # 15 needs a more in-depth look than Moderns do. It's just a fact that an AF # 15 has a better chance of being manipulated/restored than a Spider-Man # (insert random 90s #). It takes more effort, time, and skill to grade an AF # 15 than a random modern book.

@willielilly wrote:
And yes an oil filter for a Porsche is essentially the same thing as a filter for a Taurus. Only difference is size and threading to screw it on. I stand by my statement. You use the same care for every process.

Your examples are ridiculous, and you missed my point again. Do you want someone whose only ever changed the oil in a Taurus to now change the oil in your Porsche? Hell no, he's not qualified, he can't provide the same care a Porsche tech can. If you think it's just as easy to change the oil in both type of cars, I'd love to see you in your driveway, under your Porsche, draining the oil out and changing the oil yourself!

@willielilly wrote:
. A surgeon does not use "less care" as you put it when operating on a 25 year old person compared to a 80 year old person. Yes you know the 80 year old is more fragile but you take all the same precaurions to ensure both have a safe surgery. There is a standard to be used in everything my friend. Thats just the way it is.

No, you take more precautions with the 80 year old than you do with a 25 year old. The surgeon gives both patients 100%, but the 80 y.o is susceptible to complications that the 25 year old is not. Same with an AF # 15 vs a random modern book. That's just the way it is.

bpmcomics · ‎12-04-2013

You just linked the standard boiler point information that any company has on their website. CGC is protecting itself from highly litigous individuals so someone doesn't submit a book and then claim it was in better shape that it was. Do you honestly think if I submit a 150,000 AF 15 to them and they drop it thus making the book about 50,000 to 75,000 dollars less they are going to send it back and shrug? Let's try to use at least a little logic here...

beat_but_complete · ‎12-04-2013

@sun_blaze9857 wrote:

Well, I sure didn't report you last post. But this here you will find at CGC website:

DAMAGE OR LOSS IN TRANSIT. Due to their fragile nature, comic books can be damaged while in a CGC holder if improperly handled, stored or displayed. By using CGC’s products/services, you agree that CGC is not responsible for damage or loss whatsoever occurring during transit to or from CGC’s facility, or thereafter. The risk of damage or loss during transit and thereafter is entirely upon you. Unless CGC receives special delivery instructions from you, CGC will return books to you by carrier of its choice. If you wish to control your risk of damage or loss by transit, you should make arrangements to pick up your books directly at CGC’s facility.

EXCLUSION OF WARRANTIES/LIMITATION OF REMEDIES.

Although CGC intends to act with care to prevent damage, you acknowledge that handling and possession may cause damage to the comic books, including, but not limited to, the bending, ripping, cracking, or curling of pages associated with the shifting position of the comic books inside the holders. BY USING CGC’s PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, YOU AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT HOLD CGC OR ITS EMPLOYEES, MEMBERS, AFFILIATES, OR OFFICERS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE OR LOSS TO THE COMIC BOOKS OR TO YOU AS A RESULT OF ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGE OR LOSS CAUSED IN WHOLE OR IN PART BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF CGC, ITS AFFILIATES OR EMPLOYEES. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THE RETURN OF CGC’s GRADING FEE OR THE REPLACEMENT OF A DEFECTIVE HOLDER SHALL BE YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY CAUSE OF ACTION TO THE EXTENT ALLOWED AGAINST CGC, ITS EMPLOYEES, MEMBERS, AFFILIATES, AND/OR OFFICERS. IN NO EVENT SHALL CGC BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY DAMAGES OR LOST PROFITS, EVEN IF CGC IS AWARE OF THE POTENTIAL FOR SUCH DAMAGES. YOU ALSO AGREE THAT CGC HAS OFFERED NO WARRANTIES COVERING ITS SERVICES (except the express limited guarantees specifically stated herein), EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND CGC SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON- INFRINGEMENT WITH RESPECT TO ITS SERVICES OR PRODUCTS. If you wish to seek any remedy to the extent allowed against CGC, you must notify CGC in writing within 5 days of the time that you become aware of the facts giving rise to such remedy. You agree that failure to provide such notice constitutes a waiver of such remedy. To the extent that a Court determines that any part of the foregoing provision is unenforceable, then the remaining parts of the provision shall survive.

THIS GUARANTEE REPLACES AND SUPERSEDES ALL OTHER WARRENTIES, EXPRESS OF IMPLIED, AND WHETHER OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS OR OTHERWISE. THE REMEDIES PROVIDED IN THIS AGREEMENT ARE EXCLUSIVE, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED IN THIS AGREEMENT, ALL OTHER REMEDIES AGAINST CGC, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE AND INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, ARE WAIVED.

THIS GUARANTEE SHALL BE GOVERNED BY AND CONSTRUED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA AS APPLIED TO TRANSACTIONS TAKING PLACE WHOLLY WITHIN FLORIDA BETWEEN FLORIDA RESIDENTS. CLAIMANTS UNDER THIS GUARANTEE HEREBY WAIVE TRIAL BY JURY AND EXPRESSLY CONSENT TO THE EXCLUSIVE PERSONAL AND SUBJECT-MATTER JURISDICTION OF THE STATE AND FEDERAL COURTS LOCATED IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SARASOTA, STATE OF FLORIDA, FOR ANY DISPUTE ARISING FROM OR RELATED TO THIS GUARANTEE.

Notwithstanding anything else contained in this Guarantee, in the event of loss or damage of your comic by CGC, CGC will only be responsible for the LESSER of the actual fair market value or the submitter declared value.

This Guarantee represents a clarification of prior and existing versions and in no way is intended to expand any rights.

Revised: 6/4/2012 http://www.cgccomics.com/grading/cgc-comics-guarantee.asp

This information is readily available on their website. Are you saying it's false?

If I knew what the hell you were talking about, I could tell you if it's false or not.

All I read above is that just because the book is in a CGC slab, you can't automatically blame CGC for any damage the book receives after it leaves their facility. Does that not make sense? Say you are selling a slabbed book and before you send it out, you shake the living **bleep** out of it. The buyer receives the book and is upset that the book is not the grade advertised. Who does he get mad at? According to you it would be CGC because the book is in a slab, right? The buyer should sue CGC, and not you? If the Post Office runs over your CGC package, it's CGC's fault? As it says above "The risk of damage or loss during transit and thereafter is entirely upon you (the seller)." How could you blame CGC?

fun_comics9857 · ‎12-04-2013

YOU WILL NOT HOLD CGC OR ITS EMPLOYEES, MEMBERS, AFFILIATES, OR OFFICERS FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE OR LOSS TO THE COMIC BOOKS OR TO YOU AS A RESULT OF ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER

"ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER" and they can not guarantee the grade you get is the actual grade of your book. Well, I rest my case. It's your money and it's a free country. But, is it really worth paying the extra money just because the book was slabbed and graded by CGC? Most investors would pay, but someone who knows their comics might not want to pay that extra money.

willielilly · ‎12-04-2013

I wouldn't waste any more of your time sun_blaze. Now read as he/she/it explains itself.

bpmcomics · ‎12-04-2013

Sun, I really don't know about you. Why you continue to participate in subjects you know nothing about just astounds me..

Straight from CGC

I assume you'll be done posting now?

bpmcomics · ‎12-04-2013

Sure wish you could edit posts on here. This is the appropriate link. Talk to you later.

Correct link

beat_but_complete · ‎12-04-2013

@sun_blaze9857 wrote:
they can not guarantee the grade you get is the actual grade of your book. Well, I rest my case.

Who can guarantee the "actual" grade of a comic? You? Lmao! What is your definition of "actual grade" and how to you go about determining it?

It's very simple, if you actually stop and think about it. Who would you rather buy a book from? Who would you rather have grade your book?

Would it be a company that has no financial interest in how much a dealer sells a comic for, a company that has 3 graders (who grade comics every day, for a living) independently and objectively grade a comic and then later compare notes, with a resto detection expert that has been doing it for decades?

Or would you rather have the person selling the book grade it?

I rest my case.