Ivory tusk statue figurine help needed

[macrober_vrimbzu]

Trying to find out where these were made and any other info about them. Looks like I can't sell them on ebay from the research I've done so far, so where can they be sold? I have a collection that was left to me by my grandfather, around 25 figurines, ranging in size from 8" to 24" tall. Thank you

[maxine*j]

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@blazebird wrote:

Who really knows what's going to happen with the ban ultimately?

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True.  It's complicated, and who knows what will happen? 

A year ago this month, a federal appeals court ruled in favor of the NRA and the Safari Club, whose lawsuit argued that the Obama-era legislation which banned trophies from legally-hunted elephants was enacted by sidestepping the proper rulemaking process. 

So, because of the court decision, Federal Fish & Wildlife lifted the absolute ban on elephant trophies and instead will decide on a case-by-case basis.  The current restriction of two trophies per year for any animal that is a legally-hunted endangered species will continue, so far as I know.

There always was provision in the law for bringing to the U.S. trophies of animals killed as part of a structured program "to enhance the propagation or survival of the affected species."  The idea is that the huge fees hunters pay is earmarked for conservation efforts.

So far as I know, the only two countries in which elephants may be legally hunted as part of conservation programs are Zimbabwe and Zambia.  So far as I know, the verdict is still out on whether such programs work.

[argon38]

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@maxine*j wrote:
It is still legal to own certain antique ivory, and in some cases it is legal to sell said antique ivory within one's own state

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Did you mean to write "antique" here? According to the website, "Possession and non-commercial use of legally acquired ivory is allowed" - no mention of it having to be antique. And when selling it within a state, the important thing is that the seller has to be able to demonstrate that the ivory was legally imported prior to 1990 (for African elephant ivory) or 1975 (for Asian elephant ivory). Only when selling across state lines does it become necessary to demonstrate that the ivory is "100 years or older". At least, that's how I read it.

I'm only querying this because the OP's figurines may not be "antique" in the sense of being over 100 years old, so I think it matters.

Also worth noting that the figurines might well be African ivory, despite having been carved in Asia.

[maxine*j]

No, I should not have used the word "antique," because Fish & Wildlife uses "heirloom" and "vintage" and "items created long ago," rather than using the word antique in its introduction to the pages I linked to: 

"The information on this webpage is intended to provide guidance for those who wish to buy, sell, or otherwise trade in elephant ivory. It’s important to note that the new regulations do not restrict personal possession of ivory. If you already own ivory – an heirloom carving that’s been passed down in your family, or a vintage musical instrument with ivory components, those pieces are yours. We know those items created long ago aren’t threatening today’s wild elephants."

In fact, for intrastate commerce, the ivory has to be only pre-1990, with paperwork to prove it.  For interstate commerce, there are certain antiques exemptions for for ivory over 100 years old, with paperwork to prove it.  (Again, some states have their own, much stricter rules.)  But I will tell you that while this all seems clear enough, trying to navigate these waters is not for the faint of heart.

[macrober_vrimbzu]

Definitely confused. Then when you do a google search you can find current and recent past auctions all over the place where these ivory figurines are selling. As well as on worthpoint

[maxine*j]

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@macrober_vrimbzu wrote:

Definitely confused. Then when you do a google search you can find current and recent past auctions all over the place where these ivory figurines are selling. As well as on worthpoint

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Which is why I urge you to read, if you haven't already, the link I provided.  It is aimed exactly at people like you, people who find themselves in possession of ivory thjat has been in the family for some time.  It explains what you can and can't sell, where you can and can't sell it, and what you need in order to sell it.

It's daunting, but it sounds like you have already a good handle on what you have, its history, related paperwork, and so on.

You might also be interested in reading this, the perspective from an Oklahoma auction house

https://okcestatesales.com/2016/06/30420/

[macrober_vrimbzu]

Thank you for the info, I've read thru most of it and it's starting to clear things up for me. I'm so glad my grandfather saved all the paperwork (plus pictures for documentation as well as insurance. Here's a picture of a few more pieces

[mrsboyink]

I like the irony of the elephants. Too bad I can't offer to buy one. I'm not in Oklahoma.

[sonomabarn67]

First off, this is an unusual case where the OP has all the paperwork. Even so...bottom line, if you were to set that group of ivories out at a show,US  Fish & Game would confiscate on the spot and give you a reciept...with a court date for you  to show what you have is legal, even if you have paperwork which needs to be verified by prople from other countries  that have been through regime changes.  Everyone thinks they can circumvent the law because they don't agree or like it. "Oxbone?'give me a break, do you think the feds are stupid (like Trump does)? The legal fees start piling up just like a drunk driving charge where you find yourself saying "Why did I do that, I knew better!" When you have to pay $15,000-25,000 to get your ivories back that are only worth $8500 you'll see what I mean. Oh, and be sure and tell them that you got your legal advice from an ebay chatboard!   I know people that have been through this wringer!

If you want a "clear" understanding of the law, write a letter to Sarah Sanders!

[deepseashadow]

So you are saying that you have proof  that these are real, then you should also have the federal certificate that they    are real and legally imported,failing that well what can I tell you, there is a legal way and a criminal way, seems to  me that the yellow stain is there to trying to fool the UV test

[deepseashadow]

https://www.fws.gov/lab/tour.php

[macrober_vrimbzu]

Who and what are you talking about? yellow stain? 

[macrober_vrimbzu]

This is the latest info I found, Federal wildlife laws and regulations such as CITES, the ESA, and the AfECA do not prohibit possessing or display of ivory, provided it was lawfully acquired. There is no certification requirement or process to register ivory items and you do not need a permit from the Service to possess or display ivory for noncommercial purposes. We recommend that you maintain any records or documentation you have that demonstrates the origin and chain of ownership of the item. We recommend that you provide all documentation to any future recipient of your elephant ivory item. 

[sonomabarn67]

Two things to keep in mind: one, you are on a commercial website and two, go ahead and thumb your nose at federal law by skimming that law and cherry picking bits you like from it. These guys don't grade on the curve and have unlimited financial resources to prove you wrong. Defending your case would involve how many pieces you are trying to sell, a count for each piece.  If you try to sell this stuff you will have many problems. If a client brought this lot to me I would refuse it knowing what I know.

[maxine*j]

You probably know that this pair is Emperor and Empress.  She is holding a scepter and he is holding sword, which is a common representation. 

You can see many similar ones here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=chinese+emperor+and+empress+figurines&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=...:

[maxine*j]

This group is the Three Stars, the Sanxing (deities) that I mentioned in an earlier post about the single piece:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxing_(deities)