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irinahat · ‎03-26-2018

I came across a framed artwork piece at an estate sale and thought nothing of it until I researched what's on the back of the frame. "The Nicoll Company" 1107 Chapline ST Wheeling WV.

This was apparently a family owned (it appears) art shoppe from the early 1900s - ??? (can't find info really on when it closed, etc)

I did a Worthpoint search and did find only one other thing from this shoppe, and it too was a religious themed original painting.

I'm trying to decide if this is an original piece of art or a print. It's hard to tell. It LOOKS like it's on textured paper, being drawn with perhaps chalk pastels and a combination of watercolor for the red blood droplets, but, I know that art prints do print the texture of the original, making a print look textured itself. If this were oil, I'd tell right away if it was real or a reproduction because oil has texture, while chalk pastels and watercolors don't really alter the texture of paper too much.

The artist signed his name John something, with the first part ending in ING - I believe the frame is obscuring the whole name.

I am very tempted to destroy the frame, even though it does have the original store sticker on it, proving that it's originally from an antique shoppe, but, I don't see any other way to 100% verify if this is real or not.

I guess my questions are:
1) Do any of you recognize this? As in, is it a famous art print that I'm just not seeing show up in my searches for similar Jesus Christ prints?
2) I took photos, what are the chances of it being authentic? I know it's hard to tell via photos.
3) Is there any chance an art appraiser may know without destroying the frame? I used a magnifying glass and it looks textured on paper, but, it's hard to tell.
4) Ultimately, will I have to just suck it up and probably destroy the frame to know for sure? Trying to see what my options are because I take apart the back of the frame with the original shoppe sticker on it.

I am a novice seller but rarely encounter items that stump me quite like this. I usually am very sure of whether something is an original painting or a print, and, I'm kind of inexperienced in the guessing game of "Is the art real or not?"

I've willingly and gladly destroyed the backs of frames in the past to authenticate art, but, this one does have the original shoppe sticker, and the shoppe is rather obscure and not much info can be found on it, so, that just makes me hesitant.

irinahat · ‎03-26-2018

Okay, upon further inspection, I tilted the frame to the very side and scraped off a ton of gunk in the corner where the signature is, and it appears to be signed "King John"

Which confused me even further, really.

Looking at it, through the glass, it does either look like a real drawing OR I've seen very similar looking mezzo tints.

As I said, I can't really be 100% sure unless I can research and find some more stuff out. The "King John" thing threw me for a loop. I researched the family that owned this shoppe originally and saw that the name Ming came up a lot as a family name, so I originally thought it may have said Ming instead, but it definitely says King.

irinahat · ‎03-26-2018

Well, I showed it to my artist friend and they say it's actually canvas with oil. I can definitely see that, I guess I just assumed it was a pastel or chalk painting with some extra colors added from oils or acrylics on top of that, but, I can see how it could be oil. The canvas is very yellow and aged and the fact that I see no brush strokes is what didn't make me think it was oil, but, the canvas is just so fine and if they blended it into the canvas well, I can see why it'd blend seamlessly into the canvas. Jury is still out. I think I may need to just take it to a professional, honestly...

sonomabarn67 · ‎03-26-2018

"I am very tempted to destroy the frame, even though it does have the original store sticker on it, proving that it's originally from an antique shoppe, but, I don't see any other way to 100% verify if this is real or not."

Oh my!

Nicholl Co is the frame shop.

"4) Ultimately, will I have to just suck it up and probably destroy the frame to know for sure?"

Oh my! ver. 2.0

A copy of some sort. Put the image into Google images and do an image search.

argon38 · ‎03-26-2018

@sonomabarn67 wrote:
A copy of some sort. Put the image into Google images and do an image search.

It's not working for me...

sonomabarn67 · ‎03-26-2018

Not even similar Jesus images?

argon38 · ‎03-26-2018

"Best guess for this image: picture frame"

Of course there are innumerable images out there like this, but did you mean you have found the exact picture, or were you just pointing out that it's a variation on a theme?

I'm curious about the "tear" at the bottom and the four painted (?) nails in the corners.

sonomabarn67 · ‎03-26-2018

Just something for the OP to try before "destroying the frame". I wonder if they mean taking the paper from the back, taking the nails out holding the picture in and then phothgraphing the signature with a close up lens. That action would not be referred to as destroying the frame.

argon38 · ‎03-26-2018

Ah right, I wasn't sure if you meant that you'd actually found the direct source. I was wondering if the "nails" and the "tear" might have been copied from an existing artwork (I can't tell if they're real, or just part of the picture).

irinahat · ‎03-26-2018

1) Hahaha, yes, when I said "destroying the frame", I meant taking it apart on the back, "destroying" the back. Please don't think I'm a frame destroyer, ya'll!!!! I'd never do that to a poor innocent frame.

2) Yes, I know the sticker is from a frame / art shop, but, I did research and they also did sell art themselves.

It shows that the only similar things I could find, with the sticker of the name, are very old, so if someone got this framed at an old antique shop (assuming they didn't sell it, because I think they sold art as well), that would mean the image is very old too if the frame is old as well.

I found very little info on this shop, but see some pieces from the shop may date back to the early 1900s or late 1800s but it's hard to say how long they stayed open, could have been for many many more decades. They obviously aren't open anymore. I just didn't want to "destroy the frame" (AKA take the paper off the back) because I'm trying to do more research on this shop and how old it is, and that way, I can say the print and frame are both "such and such" years old, because that's how old the shop is, and that could help me date the painting a bit better.

Also, the nails and cracks are part of the artwork. Looking at it more closely, it's starting to resemble a fine fine aged canvas + paint more and more.

argon38 · ‎03-26-2018

@irinahat wrote:

Also, the nails and cracks are part of the artwork.

That's what I thought. Could be a copy of some other work, then? I can't think of any other reason to draw a tear in the canvas.

irinahat · ‎03-26-2018

Well, the tear looks like it was added for effect. The Nails represent Christ being nailed to the cross (obviously) and the cracks stemming from the nails are just an artistic touch. It doesn't really prove to me if this is a copy or an original, though, because even if this is a copy, the original artist did draw it this way, regardless, to add a touch of artistic flair.

It's looking more and more like I'm going to have to take the back of the frame off to touch the surface of what this was drawn on, to see if I can feel texture, paint, etc. Obviously the glass really hinders me from doing this, sadly. I'm still going to continue to do research on this obscure little shoppe that either sold this piece of art or framed it, to see how well I can determine age. Not much comes up in google searches besides the names of the people who most likely owned it, and such.

argon38 · ‎03-26-2018

@irinahatwrote:
Well, the tear looks like it was added for effect. The Nails represent Christ being nailed to the cross (obviously) and the cracks stemming from the nails are just an artistic touch. It doesn't really prove to me if this is a copy or an original, though, because even if this is a copy, the original artist did draw it this way, regardless, to add a touch of artistic flair.

I'm not sure I understand what effect was being aimed at by depicting a tear in the canvas? Also, I don't really feel it is obvious that the four nails in the corner of the image must represent Christ being nailed to the cross. It would make more sense to me as a depiction based upon an existing image with four real nails and a real tear. But of course, I could be wrong.

sonomabarn67 · ‎03-26-2018

"..so if someone got this framed at an old antique shop"

You might have better luck if you go at this as a frame/art shop that sold some antique art rather than the other way around. Also, housewares shops would have adverts offering framing services. Check any old city directories from that town under decorative goods, art frames, etc. Drop the word antique from your searches for now. And thanks for not destroying frames. It would be safe to open up the back to get at the sig. If you slice the two sides and bottom of the paper and leave the top "hinge" intact, you can feed it under the wire and have total access to the nails. This leaves the orig lable intact on the paper.

irinahat · ‎03-27-2018

@argon38wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what effect was being aimed at by depicting a tear in the canvas? Also, I don't really feel it is obvious that the four nails in the corner of the image must represent Christ being nailed to the cross. It would make more sense to me as a depiction based upon an existing image with four real nails and a real tear. But of course, I could be wrong.

No, you see, I've been selling art for 15+ years. I am looking at it with a magnifying glass and I can visibly see that the nails and the tear are for sure painted on - if this is an original, then painted on this canvas, and if a print, then painted on the original art. Trust me, the nails and cracks are shaded, look like paint, etc. I am almost certain that these are not actual nails. I can only tell because I literally have had my face 1 inch away from this thing with a magnifying glass, scrutinizing it, and I can definitely tell that these nails and cracks were drawn on.