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Bookend I.D. help please

These aren't marked anywhere. They look like pirates by Paul Herzel, but they're not bronze. Can I list them as attributed to Herzel? After Herzel? I can't find any reference to his stuff ever being made in any way other than bronze clad. Are there any bookend people or Deco bronze people on here? The difference between a modern reproduction and something that may have been made from his actual molds is huge.

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please


@mrsboyink wrote:

Really, I'm trying to determine age to help approximate value in wondering about whether or not they're chalkware. I would think that would make them older than if they're ceramic (which was my original guess) or resin (which I'm sure they're not.) The paint does seem to be oil and there are evident brushmarks. I went to this sale hoping to get my hands on one of their Tang horses or Shawnee cookie jars, so I know these people collected well. Unfortunately, they're probably deceased, so I can't ask them about the pirates.


I guess I misunderstood your original question, which I thought was about whether or not to mention Herzel in your title /listing. 

 

Plaster of Paris (chalkware) is better than ceramic or plastic for bookends because it has more weight, and you can buy chalkware bookends to this day, or kits to make your own.  And there is reproduction "vintage" or "carnival chalkware" out there, too, sometimes listed as old, innocently or intentionlly.

 

But your set is older (c. 1930 - 1960) and there are collectors of old chalkware, although the bookends don't seem to be big sellers at the moment:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=chalkware+bookends&LH_Complete=1



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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

My other pic disappeared

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

Nothing "disappeared."  You started a duplicate thread.  Here's the original:

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Collectibles-Art/Unclad-Herzel/m-p/28487565

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

Oops. I've been throwing these guys up on every forum I know hoping for anything. So far I've gotten nothing and have apparently lapped myself in desperation.

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please


@mrsboyink wrote:

Oops. I've been throwing these guys up on every forum I know hoping for anything. So far I've gotten nothing and have apparently lapped myself in desperation.


Smiley LOL

 

-

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please


@mrsboyink wrote:

These aren't marked anywhere. They look like pirates by Paul Herzel, but they're not bronze. Can I list them as attributed to Herzel? After Herzel? I can't find any reference to his stuff ever being made in any way other than bronze clad. Are there any bookend people or Deco bronze people on here? The difference between a modern reproduction and something that may have been made from his actual molds is huge.


i wouldn't do it...

it is like setting you up for a snad.

don't think 1 would get away with lets say;

attributed to Tiffany (unless 1 can prove it).

then again many sellers today, get away with ? and like in titles...

many others get away with thousands of duplicates.

and these are not Tiffany so no one myight question ur statement.

i would not recommend it though...

 

 

 

letoulousain
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Re: Bookend I.D. help please


@lemarcheaupuces wrote:

i wouldn't do it...

it is like setting you up for a snad.

don't think 1 would get away with lets say;

attributed to Tiffany (unless 1 can prove it).


I agree. The phrase "attributed to" would suggest to me that a reliable third-party expert has given a professional opinion to that effect, which doesn't appear to be the case here. If the only person doing the "attributing" is the seller, a buyer could feel misled.

 

"In the style of Paul Herzel" would be OK, but then Herzel's name couldn't be mentioned in the title of the listing, as that would violate the rules:

 

"You may include the artist's name in the title of the listing only when listing a work by the artist him/herself or an exact replica of the artist's work. You may not include the artist's name when listing a work done 'in the style of' an artist."

 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/selling-art-policy?id=4284

 

If it were mine I would put off listing it until I could find out for certain if it's by Herzel or not. If nobody here can help, it might be worthwhile checking out other online discussion groups.

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please


@argon38 wrote:

If nobody here can help, it might be worthwhile checking out other online discussion groups.

Oh, I see the OP has already done that! I can't think of anything else to suggest, unfortunately.

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

I've just spent some time looking at the originals by Herzel, along with other work from the Pompeian Bronze Co, and its successor Maron Bronze, defunct 1971. 

 

Your (plaster?) bookends are a far, far cry from the originals, in every aspect.  

 

My best advice is to just sell them for what they are, and don't encourage buyers to make the same comparison I just did.
 

Message 9 of 19
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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

As other's have said, "attributed to Herzel" is a bad idea.

I doubt that this design was made by Herzel, I have only seen his signed works from the Pompeian Bronze Co, though one source suggested he sold designs to other companies as well, it seems unlikely he would copy one of PBC's popular designs, for a competitor of PBC. That would be biting the hand that feeds you. More likely who ever made these chalkware bookends hired someone to copy the designs of PBC to be sold at a five and dime.

Message 10 of 19
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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

There was one made by Armor Bronze where he had his foot on a treasure chest. That was the first pic I saw that was similar and sent me down this rabbit hole.
Chalkware hadn't occured to me... I'm not so much familiar with it. The bottoms are felted over, so I can't check for any marks. Other than getting it wet, are there any other distinguishing characteristics I should look for? They're about 10" x 5" and weigh about 2# each. That does seem a little light, but they're kind of wispy dudes.

Message 11 of 19
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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

I said plaster and Pixzee said chalkware.  They're the same thing, for all practical purposes.   As was Pixzee, I imagine, I was basing it on the look of the chip where the end of his nose should be, on the lack of sharpness of detail, on the way the color lays on it., on just the overall appearance.  The weight you give is about right, too.

Message 12 of 19
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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

Yes, what maxine said (chalkware is either Plaster or gypsum). There are several chips on this piece where you should be able to see thru to the medium. I might add that the paint is often airbrushed on vintage chalkware.

There are enough chalkware collectors that eBay has a whole category dedicated to it, see completed bookend listings.

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

I feel a really long answer is due here. 🙂

 

Plaster is a building material used for the protective and/or decorative coating of walls and ceilings and for moulding and casting decorative elements.[1] In English "plaster" usually means a material used for the interiors of buildings, while "render" commonly refers to external applications.[2] Another imprecise term used for the material is stucco, which is also often used for plasterwork that is worked in some way to produce relief decoration, rather than flat surfaces.

The most common types of plaster mainly contain either gypsum, lime, or cement,[3] but all work in a similar way. The plaster is manufactured as a dry powder and is mixed with water to form a stiff but workable paste immediately before it is applied to the surface. The reaction with water liberates heat through crystallization and the hydrated plaster then hardens.

Plaster can be relatively easily worked with metal tools or even sandpaper, and can be moulded, either on site or to make pre-formed sections in advance, which are put in place with adhesive. Plaster is not a strong material; it is suitable for finishing, rather than load-bearing, and when thickly applied for decoration may require a hidden supporting framework, usually in metal.

Forms of plaster have several other uses. In medicine plaster orthopedic casts are still often used for supporting set broken bones. In dentistry plaster is used to make dental models. Various types of models and moulds are made with plaster. In art, lime plaster is the traditional matrix for fresco painting; the pigments are applied to a thin wet top layer of plaster and fuse with it so that the painting is actually in coloured plaster. In the ancient world, as well as the sort of ornamental designs in plaster relief that are still used, plaster was also widely used to create large figurative reliefs for walls, though few of these have survived.

 

Clay plaster

Clay plaster is a mixture of clay, sand and water with the addition of plant fibers for tensile strength over wood lath.

Clay plaster has been used since antiquity. Settlers in the American colonies used clay plaster on the interiors of their houses: “Interior plastering in the form of clay antedated even the building of houses of frame, and must have been visible in the inside of wattle filling in those earliest frame houses in which …wainscot had not been indulged. Clay continued in the use long after the adoption of laths and brick filling for the frame."[4] Where lime was not available or easily accessible it was rationed or substituted with other binders. In Martin Weaver’s seminal work he says, “Mud plaster consists of clay or earth which is mixed with water to give a “plastic” or workable consistency. If the clay mixture is too plastic it will shrink, crack and distort on drying. It will also probably drop off the wall. Sand and fine gravels were added to reduce the concentrations of fine clay particles which were the cause of the excessive shrinkage.”[5] Straw or grass was added sometimes with the addition of manure.

In the Earliest European settlers’ plasterwork, a mud plaster was used or more usually a mud-lime mixture.[6] In Harley McKee’s book on early American masonry[7] he writes, of a circa 1675 Massachusetts contract that specified the plasterer, “Is to lath and siele[8] the four rooms of the house betwixt the joists overhead with a coat of lime and haire upon the clay; also to fill the gable ends of the house with ricks and plaister them with clay. 5. To lath and plaster partitions of the house with clay and lime, and to fill, lath, and plaister them with lime and haire besides; and to siele and lath them overhead with lime; also to fill, lath, and plaster the kitchen up to the wall plate on every side. 6. The said Daniel Andrews is to find lime, bricks, clay, stone, haire, together with laborers and workmen… .”[9] Records of the New Haven colony in 1641 mention clay and hay as well as lime and hair also. In German houses of Pennsylvania the use of clay persisted.”[10]

Old Economy Village is one such German settlement. The early Nineteenth-Century utopian village in present-day Ambridge, Pennsylvania, used clay plaster substrate exclusively in the brick and wood frame high architecture of the Feast Hall, Great House and other large and commercial structures as well as in the brick, frame and log dwellings of the society members. The use of clay in plaster and in laying brickwork appears to have been a common practice at that time not just in the construction of Economy village when the settlement was founded in 1824. Specifications for the construction of, “Lock keepers houses on the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal, written about 1828, require stone walls to be laid with clay mortar, excepting 3 inches on the outside of the walls…which (are) to be good lime mortar and well pointed.”[11] The choice of clay was because of its low cost, but also the availability. At Economy, root cellars dug under the houses yielded clay and sand (stone), or the nearby Ohio river yielded washed sand from the sand bars; and lime outcroppings and oyster shell for the lime kiln. Other required building materials were also sourced locally.

The surrounding forests of the new village of Economy provided straight grain, old-growth oak trees for lath.[12] Hand split lath starts with a log of straight grained wood of the required length. The log is spit into quarters and then smaller and smaller bolts with wedges and a sledge. When small enough, a froe and mallet were used to split away narrow strips of lath - unattainable with field trees and their many limbs. Farm animals pastured in the fields cleared of trees provided the hair and manure for the float coat of plaster. Fields of wheat and grains provided straw and other grasses for binders for the clay plaster. But there was no uniformity in clay plaster recipes.

Straw or grass was added sometimes with the addition of manure providing fiber for tensile strength as well as protein adhesive. Proteins in the manure act as binders. The hydrogen bonds of proteins must stay dry to remain strong, so the mud plaster must be kept dry.[13] With braced timber framed structures clay plaster was used on interior walls and ceilings as well as exterior walls as the wall cavity and exterior cladding isolated the clay plaster from moisture penetration. Application of clay plaster in brick structures risked water penetration from failed mortar joints on the exterior brick walls. In Economy Village, the rear and middle wythes of brick dwelling walls are laid in a clay and sand mortar with the front wythe bedded in a lime and sand mortar to provide a weather proof seal to protect from water penetration. This allowed a rendering of clay plaster and setting coat of thin lime and fine sand on exterior-walled rooms.

Split lath was nailed with square cut lath nails, one into each framing member. With hand split lath the plaster had the luxury of making lath to fit the cavity being plastered. Lengths of lath two to six foot are not uncommon at Economy Village. Hand split lath is not uniform like sawn lath. The straightness or waviness of the grain affected the thickness or width of each lath, and thus the spacing of the lath. The clay plaster rough coat varied to cover the irregular lath. Window and door trim as well as the mudboard (baseboard) acted as screeds. With the variation of the lath thickness and use of coarse straw and manure, the clay coat of plaster was thick in comparison to later lime-only and gypsum plasters. In Economy Village, the lime top coats are thin veneers often an eighth inch or less attesting to the scarcity of limestone supplies there.

 
Lime setting-coat on clay plaster with straw binder. Applied to hand-split lath over a timber framed wall of a brick family house at Economy Landmark village.

Clay plasters with their lack of tensile and compressive strength fell out of favor as industrial mining and technology advances in kiln production led to the exclusive use of lime and then gypsum in plaster applications. However, clay plasters still exist after hundreds of years clinging to split lath on rusty square nails. The wall variations and roughness reveal a hand-made and pleasing textured alternative to machine-made modern substrate finishes. But clay plaster finishes are rare and fleeting. According to Martin Weaver, “Many of North America’s historic building interiors…are all too often…one of the first things to disappear in the frenzy of demolition of interiors which has unfortunately come to be a common companion to “heritage preservation” in the guise of building rehabilitation.”[14]

Gypsum plaster

Gypsum plaster, or plaster of Paris, is produced by heating gypsum to about 300 °F (150 °C):[15]

CaSO4·2H2O + heat → CaSO4·0.5H2O + 1.5H2O (released as steam).

When the dry plaster powder is mixed with water, it re-forms into gypsum. The setting of unmodified plaster starts about 10 minutes after mixing and is complete in about 45 minutes; but not fully set for 72 hours.[16] If plaster or gypsum is heated above 266 °F (130 °C), hemihydrate is formed, which will also re-form as gypsum if mixed with water.[17][18]

On heating to 180 °C, the nearly water-free form, called γ-anhydrite (CaSO4·nH2O where n = 0 to 0.05) is produced. γ-Anhydrite reacts slowly with water to return to the dihydrate state, a property exploited in some commercial desiccants. On heating above 250 °C, the completely anhydrous form called β-anhydrite or dead burned plaster is formed.

A large gypsum deposit at Montmartre in Paris led "calcined gypsum" (roasted gypsum or gypsum plaster) to be commonly known as "plaster of Paris".[19]

Plasterers often use gypsum to simulate the appearance of surfaces of wood, stone, or metal, on movie and theatrical sets for example. Nowadays, theatrical plasterers often use expanded polystyrene, although the job title remains unchanged.

Plaster of Paris can be used to impregnate gauze bandages to make a sculpting material called plaster bandages. It is used similarly to clay, as it is easily shaped when wet, yet sets into a resilient and lightweight structure. This is the material that was (and sometimes still is) used to make classic plaster orthopedic casts to protect limbs with broken bones, the artistic use having been partly inspired by the medical use (see orthopedic cast). Set Modroc is an early example of a composite material. The hydration of plaster of Paris relies on the reaction of water with the dehydrated or partially hydrated calcium sulfate present in the plaster.

 

 

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Re: Bookend I.D. help please

Really, I'm trying to determine age to help approximate value in wondering about whether or not they're chalkware. I would think that would make them older than if they're ceramic (which was my original guess) or resin (which I'm sure they're not.) The paint does seem to be oil and there are evident brushmarks. I went to this sale hoping to get my hands on one of their Tang horses or Shawnee cookie jars, so I know these people collected well. Unfortunately, they're probably deceased, so I can't ask them about the pirates.

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