weird bidding and retractions history

[89janine]

I was first bidder on a vintage ceramic item. The next day, I got an outbid notice, a single bidder outbid me with 6 bids. Today (2 days later) I get notice of a bid retraction, that I'm the high bidder, then 3 minutes later, before I can check the retraction history, the same bidder has outbid me by 38 cents. I considered putting in a slighly higher bid closer to the end of the auction, which is tomorrow, but then 2 hours later I got a SECOND bid retraction notice, the same bidder is now underbidding me by 40 cents. I didn't think the same bidder could bid an item up 6 times, retract their bid 2 days later, then retract again 2 hours later? It seems really off to me. Would you report this?

[7606dennis]

I must admit that I wouldn't be very thrilled with this kind of carrying on.  You could report your suspicions but I doubt if it would result in much happening unless eBay's investigation showed definite shilling.  In that case, eBay might pull the listing.  I would probably suggest that you not increase your max bid further and let the auction end as it may.  I'm assuming that your maximum bid placed was not higher than you are willing to pay upon winning.  If it is, the mistake is yours in your evaluation of the items value.

[89janine]

No plans to increase my bid, because it feels like I am being played. The seller has good feedback tho

[godzilla_goose]

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@89janinewrote:

I was first bidder on a vintage ceramic item. The next day, I got an outbid notice, a single bidder outbid me with 6 bids. Today (2 days later) I get notice of a bid retraction, that I'm the high bidder, then 3 minutes later, before I can check the retraction history, the same bidder has outbid me by 38 cents. I considered putting in a slighly higher bid closer to the end of the auction, which is tomorrow, but then 2 hours later I got a SECOND bid retraction notice, the same bidder is now underbidding me by 40 cents. I didn't think the same bidder could bid an item up 6 times, retract their bid 2 days later, then retract again 2 hours later? It seems really off to me. Would you report this?

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@89janine

89janine,

From your opening post, there isn’t enough information to prove that the seller of the vintage ceramic item is disreputable and is manipulating your bid. What is certain (to me) is that the bid retractor IS a SHILL BIDDER simply by manipulating YOUR bid. That, in and of itself, does NOT mean that the seller himself/herself is a SHILLER. I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

From what you have written, I can understand that you have examined the Bid History page to the auction itself to see how (and when) your bid was being manipulated. What I want you to do now is to click on the bid retractor’s user ID to view that bidder’s 30-day bidding history and see what percentage of their bids are with this seller AND if the items bid on are within the same category or are the items unrelated and from widely varied categories? If the percentage is relatively high, it is possible that the bid retractor is a SHILL BIDDER acting FOR the seller. If the percentage is low, then this lessens the probability that the bid retractor is a SHILL BIDDING ID of the seller. Frankly, I do NOT like to use this particular bidding statistic since it is too easy to place frivolous low-ball 1¢ bids in other (Chinese or South Asian/Indian) sellers’ auctions to manipulate the bidding percentage to conceal SHILL BIDDING suspicion with the seller in question.

Next, IF you can confirm that this bid retractor has placed numerous bids on this seller’s auctions AND that the percentage of bids placed in this seller’s auctions is relatively high, then what I want you to do is to check the Bid History pages of the seller’s recently closed auctions to see what, if anything, appears in the Bid History pages with respect to bid retractions and/or bid cancellations. If you see a bid cancellation, that, to me, is more convincing of a shilling SELLER since it is ONLY the seller (and eBay, via Administrative Cancellation) that can CANCEL a bidder’s bid(s). Reputable eBay sellers who cancel a bidder’s bids tend to place that bidder on the seller’s Blocked Bidder List to prevent further bidding activity FROM that unwanted bidder. From my recollection, when eBay itself, through Administrative Cancellation, cancels a bidder’s bid(s), eBay usually SUSPENDS that bidder’s user ID at that time. IF you see that SAME bid retractor doing this same bid retracting activity in more than ONE of this seller’s auctions, then this will increase my suspicion that the bid retractor IS a SHILL BIDDER acting FOR the seller.

Even though you say that the seller has “good feedback”, many legitimate bidders who have had their bids manipulated by a SHILLING SELLER do NOT know that they have been ripped off since many bidders (present day) use their phones to bid and from what I understand about eBay’s phone bidding app, the bidder does NOT have access to the Bid History page of the auction itself VIA the phone app. The bidder may have set up their phone app to receive outbid notices or notices of bid retractions BUT I surmise that many bidders do not take their time to thoroughly check the Bid History page of the auction itself on another electronic device (computer/laptop) to see what the heck is going on with the bidding process when the bidder receives an email alert of a bid retraction.

So, IF I were the bidder, I would go through the seller’s recently closed auctions to see if there is the presence of bid retraction or bid cancellation activity. At the same time, IF I truly had a concern that the seller MAY BE a SHILLER, then I would go and check the Bid History pages of the auctions for which the seller has received feedback and I would check at least 50 (FIFTY) auctions at a minimum since it only takes me a few seconds to check the Bid History page of a given auction. If you know what to look for, performing this due diligence on your seller should take no more than 10 minutes.

If I suspect that a seller IS a SHILLER, I can readily find the proof within the Bid History page of a given auction and I only need to find ONE auction to come to the conclusion that the SELLER is “dirty”.

So, without more research, I don’t know what you can report (to eBay) and from my personal experience having reported hundreds of auctions in which the SHILL BIDDING is BLATANT (in other words, indisputable and irrefutable), eBay has done NOTHING with the reports.

Keep an eye on your auction.

[mudshark61369]

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@89janinewrote:

No plans to increase my bid, because it feels like I am being played. The seller has good feedback tho

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@89janine,

What you have described doesn't sound like the seller is involved in any way and this isn't a case of shill bidding. Despite of the goose trying to come up with thier own definition a shill works for a seller or vendor.

noun

noun: shill; plural noun: shills

1. 1.

   an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

   • a person who pretends to give an impartial endorsement of something in which they themselves have an interestverb

verb: shill; 

1. 1.

   act or work as a shill

   3rd person present: shills; past tense: shilled; past participle: shilled; gerund or present participle: shilling

What seems to be happening is one or two bidders who do not know the rules bid against your higher automatic bid.

Did you ever check the bid history with See Automatic Bids enabled?  Then did you click on the a****b ID, of the bid retractor(s) to see their history?  Chances are you will find they have different numbers of feedback.  You may find the person or persons have a history of retracting bids.  Because a member's bid history is only for the last 30 days they may have a high percentage of bidding on the seller's auctions, if they haven't participated in many auctions lately.  Usually a person who retracts thier bids after uncovering another member's high bid, does not come back and bid again.  So I think you have two different people bidding against you.

You have a lot of buying exprience on ebay, but do not seem to have learned that the way to avoid shills or bid retractors, is to bid once for the most you are willing to pay, very late in an auction, so a shill / bid retractor, do not have time to react to your bid. True shills do not bid to win. The only time you should bid early on an auction is if there is a Buy It Now price as well. Then the first bid causes the BIN to go away.

" I didn't think the same bidder could bid an item up 6 times, retract their bid 2 days later, then retract again 2 hours later? It seems really off to me. Would you report this"?

If what you see in the bid histories of the bidders, looks like they work for the seller you can report the listing.  If it looks like there were two people bidding on their own and have a history of retracting bids, then there is no way to report them. The seller can do that, but unfortunately ebay does not seem to enforce their policy about bid retracting, though many of us wish they would, since it causes distrust in the auction system.

Read the info in the link below about retracting bids.

https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/bidding/retracting-bid?id=4013

[thatsallfolks]

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@godzilla_goosewrote:
89janine,

From your opening post, there isn’t enough information to prove that the seller of the vintage ceramic item is disreputable and is manipulating your bid. What is certain (to me) is that the bid retractor IS a SHILL BIDDER simply by manipulating YOUR bid. That, in and of itself, does NOT mean that the seller himself/herself is a SHILLER. I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

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By definition, a shill is someone working with the seller. You're describing a SPORT bidder. By using the term "shill", you are implicating the seller, whether you intend to or not.

[godzilla_goose]

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@thatsallfolkswrote:

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@godzilla_goosewrote:
89janine,

From your opening post, there isn’t enough information to prove that the seller of the vintage ceramic item is disreputable and is manipulating your bid. What is certain (to me) is that the bid retractor IS a SHILL BIDDER simply by manipulating YOUR bid. That, in and of itself, does NOT mean that the seller himself/herself is a SHILLER. I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

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By definition, a shill is someone working with the seller. You're describing a SPORT bidder. By using the term "shill", you are implicating the seller, whether you intend to or not.

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thatsallfolks,

A SPORT bidder is something coined a LONG, LONG time ago on the OLD Bidding Board and I was NEVER a fan of such a term since eBay itself NEVER had such a term, SPORT bidder.

eBay’s own definition of shill bidding is “when someone bids on an item to artificially increase its price, desirability, or search standing.”

There is NO suggestion by me, whatsoever, that a SHILL is implicating the seller. Maybe you don’t remember *madison’s bid being SHILLED and NEVER once did I suggest that *madison’s seller was disreputable.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Bidding-Buying/Bid-retracted/td-p/26969588

IF I have something that can support my belief that the SELLER is disreputable, THEN I will call the SELLER a SHILLING SELLER or a SHILLER. This is precisely WHY I wrote I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

When a wrote that the SHILL BIDDER is “working FOR the SELLER”, I am trying to convey that the inflated price benefits the SELLER to the detriment of the legitimate bidder AND that the seller had done NOTHING WRONG. The SHILL BIDDER, in *madison’s auction or in 89janine’s auction, may not even know the seller.

Really, please really take your time to carefully consider what I wrote because I am trying to choose my words carefully.

[thatsallfolks]

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@godzilla_goosewrote:

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@thatsallfolkswrote:

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@godzilla_goosewrote:
89janine,

From your opening post, there isn’t enough information to prove that the seller of the vintage ceramic item is disreputable and is manipulating your bid. What is certain (to me) is that the bid retractor IS a SHILL BIDDER simply by manipulating YOUR bid. That, in and of itself, does NOT mean that the seller himself/herself is a SHILLER. I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

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By definition, a shill is someone working with the seller. You're describing a SPORT bidder. By using the term "shill", you are implicating the seller, whether you intend to or not.

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thatsallfolks,

A SPORT bidder is something coined a LONG, LONG time ago on the OLD Bidding Board and I was NEVER a fan of such a term since eBay itself NEVER had such a term, SPORT bidder.

eBay’s own definition of shill bidding is “when someone bids on an item to artificially increase its price, desirability, or search standing.”

There is NO suggestion by me, whatsoever, that a SHILL is implicating the seller. Maybe you don’t remember *madison’s bid being SHILLED and NEVER once did I suggest that *madison’s seller was disreputable.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Bidding-Buying/Bid-retracted/td-p/26969588

IF I have something that can support my belief that the SELLER is disreputable, THEN I will call the SELLER a SHILLING SELLER or a SHILLER. This is precisely WHY I wrote I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

When a wrote that the SHILL BIDDER is “working FOR the SELLER”, I am trying to convey that the inflated price benefits the SELLER to the detriment of the legitimate bidder AND that the seller had done NOTHING WRONG. The SHILL BIDDER, in *madison’s auction or in 89janine’s auction, may not even know the seller.

Really, please really take your time to carefully consider what I wrote because I am trying to choose my words carefully.

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You need to carefully consider that in eBay's world, and most of the rest of the world, the use of the term "shill" indicates involvement of the seller. I don't care if eBay uses the term "sport bidder"; it's an accurate term for someone NOT associated with the seller who manipulates the price.

It's unfortunate that you would use eBay's lame definition of "shill" to make your case. They're not very good at explaining much of anything.

[godzilla_goose]

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@thatsallfolkswrote:

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@godzilla_goosewrote:

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@thatsallfolkswrote:

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@godzilla_goosewrote:
89janine,

From your opening post, there isn’t enough information to prove that the seller of the vintage ceramic item is disreputable and is manipulating your bid. What is certain (to me) is that the bid retractor IS a SHILL BIDDER simply by manipulating YOUR bid. That, in and of itself, does NOT mean that the seller himself/herself is a SHILLER. I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

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By definition, a shill is someone working with the seller. You're describing a SPORT bidder. By using the term "shill", you are implicating the seller, whether you intend to or not.

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thatsallfolks,

A SPORT bidder is something coined a LONG, LONG time ago on the OLD Bidding Board and I was NEVER a fan of such a term since eBay itself NEVER had such a term, SPORT bidder.

eBay’s own definition of shill bidding is “when someone bids on an item to artificially increase its price, desirability, or search standing.”

There is NO suggestion by me, whatsoever, that a SHILL is implicating the seller. Maybe you don’t remember *madison’s bid being SHILLED and NEVER once did I suggest that *madison’s seller was disreputable.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Bidding-Buying/Bid-retracted/td-p/26969588

IF I have something that can support my belief that the SELLER is disreputable, THEN I will call the SELLER a SHILLING SELLER or a SHILLER. This is precisely WHY I wrote I consider a SHILL BIDDER a separate and distinct entity from a SHILLING SELLER.

When a wrote that the SHILL BIDDER is “working FOR the SELLER”, I am trying to convey that the inflated price benefits the SELLER to the detriment of the legitimate bidder AND that the seller had done NOTHING WRONG. The SHILL BIDDER, in *madison’s auction or in 89janine’s auction, may not even know the seller.

Really, please really take your time to carefully consider what I wrote because I am trying to choose my words carefully.

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You need to carefully consider that in eBay's world, and most of the rest of the world, the use of the term "shill" indicates involvement of the seller. I don't care if eBay uses the term "sport bidder"; it's an accurate term for someone NOT associated with the seller who manipulates the price.

It's unfortunate that you would use eBay's lame definition of "shill" to make your case. They're not very good at explaining much of anything.

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thatsallfolks,

I NEVER once stated that eBay uses the term "sport bidder".  I stated that the term SPORT bidder was coined LONG, LONG ago on the Old Bidding Board.  "Sport Bidder" is NOT a term originated BY eBay.

If you don't like the term "sport bidder", "Enemy Bidder" was also used LONG, LONG, ago on the OLD Bidding Board and Enemy Bidder was also a term NOT originated by eBay either.

I am quite satisfied with how eBay defines "shill bidding" since it is eBay's platform.  To me, bid manipulation is also synonymous with shill bidding.  Do you think that bid manipulation is more appropriate than shill bidding when mentioning or identifying a party that is NOT related to the SELLER engaging in such a practice?

Last post for today.

[thatsallfolks]

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@godzilla_goosewrote:
thatsallfolks,

I NEVER once stated that eBay uses the term "sport bidder".  I stated that the term SPORT bidder was coined LONG, LONG ago on the Old Bidding Board.  "Sport Bidder" is NOT a term originated BY eBay.

If you don't like the term "sport bidder", "Enemy Bidder" was also used LONG, LONG, ago on the OLD Bidding Board and Enemy Bidder was also a term NOT originated by eBay either.

I am quite satisfied with how eBay defines "shill bidding" since it is eBay's platform.  To me, bid manipulation is also synonymous with shill bidding.  Do you think that bid manipulation is more appropriate than shill bidding when mentioning or identifying a party that is NOT related to the SELLER engaging in such a practice?

Last post for today.

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I know you didn't. And I don't care if they do or don't. "Shill" is not the appropriate term if the seller is not involved. And eBay doesn't get to change the English language by posting half-baked explanations of terms that have been in use for nearly a century.