I got charged immediately for a "make an offer" that was declined?

[the_grille_badge_guy]

Experienced 20 year eBayer here.

I made an offer on eBay for an item on my mobile app and strangely, it made me go through putting my payment info in BEFORE I made the offer, this is not normal behavior. Normally when you make an offer once the offer is accepted then you have to pay.

Anyway, the offer was IMMEDIATELY declined (eBay should have known my offer was too low right before asking for my payment info). ANYWAY, I got a notification from Paypal that I made a payment to eBay for that amount right after. 

What gives? Even the website says I will not be charged unless the offer is accepted.  This sucks as my Paypal balance was immediately reduced and now this sits there pending. This transaction did not happen, it is not in my purchase history or anything, like I said the offer was declined.
https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/buy-now/making-best-offer?id=4019

[mudshark61369]

@the_grille_badge_guy,

What @ittybitnot , wrote about about two posts back are called charge holds.  They go on a payment source's (PayPal, Bank Account, debit card) immediately. However, the funds are only on hold but deducted from a balance, to prevent someone from accidentally causing an overdraft.  Once the payment clears the charge is completed. This happens when you rent cars, or book a hotel room.  

If you made the offer on the 5th when you wrote this topic, which was on a Saturday, the decline may only have gone through ebay's computers to your PayPal account on Monday the 8th, and the held funds may take a day to be released, that is often done after business hours.  eBay and PayPal do not communicate well these days.

I asked my banker about the charge hold because there are a number of topics about people thinking they have been double charged. They see the hold deduction on an account, then the actual charge later, and think they were charged twice. If they check their balance they will find they have only actually been "charged" once.

[ittybitnot]

@mudshark61369 

Thanks for that information.  Maybe it is peculiar to PayPal, but when the funds are "on charge hold" using a PayPal balance, they can't be used for anything else until it is removed. 

 Would it be the case then if, just as an example for discussion purposes, that if the buyer made an offer of say $800,  (with a PayPal cash balance of $900) and was immediately declined, they could not move on to another seller  and make an offer with the cash balance again of say $850 since the funds were already "spoken for" for lack of a better term even though the offer was declined?   Who determines how long the "charge hold" lasts?   

Hopefully, @the_grille_badge_guy  will keep us updated on how long his charge hold lasts. 

[the_grille_badge_guy]

Exactly, very terrifying for someone who makes lots of offers and this goes back to the argument I made above, eBay knows or should know what my lowest accepted offer will be. So if I have a $1000 item with a "make an offer" I may put I will auto decline ANY offer under $850. 

HOWEVER, eBay would authorize a buyer who made an offer for say $700 and tie up their checking account or Paypal and that is some **bleep**, because eBay KNEW the offer would be auto declined. 

[the_grille_badge_guy]

And I certainly will update when this charge disappears from pending. 

[mudshark61369]

@ittybitnot,

"just as an example for discussion purposes, that if the buyer made an offer of say $800, (with a PayPal cash balance of $900) and was immediately declined, they could not move on to another seller and make an offer with the cash balance again of say $850 since the funds were already "spoken for" for lack of a better term even though the offer was declined"?

That is an interesting question and I honestly do not know the answer.  My best guess is that neither would return the funds to a balance until a cancellation notice is received.  They would probably refuse the 2nd purchase until the hold is cancelled by the declined offer, and the full balance is restored. Otherwise, they could cause an overdraft of the account.

  How long that may take would depend on the institution's communication relationship with the vendor (ebay in this case) and the time it takes them to process the cancellation in their system. You mentioned the hold taking a few days when used at a gas station.  It may also depend on the buyer's record with an institution.  Next time I go by my branch, I'll stop in and ask my banker, it is very near to most of the places I shop locally.  I'll post it here and PM you when I have an answer. 

[ittybitnot]

HOWEVER, eBay would authorize a buyer who made an offer for say $700 and tie up their checking account or Paypal and that is some **bleep**, because eBay KNEW the offer would be auto declined. 

@the_grille_badge_guy 

I am not certain about the "ebay knew" part.  However, if the offer is declined, it appears the "charge hold" is NOT removed as a result.  I don't know if there is any way that the "hold" that temporarily reduces the amount of available cash funds in PayPal, a bank account if you use a debit card,  or credit card that may apply to your charging limit, can be "speeded up" per se.   

Right now we are just collecting the usual evidence supplied by affected users.  For example, a buyer with a high credit limit that uses that c.card would likely not be affected by numerous charge/authorization holds remaining for days (weeks?) or even notice.  Not so for others, like myself.   

It is something that needs to be communicated to the Buyer in advance, as to what will happen if they make an offer and it is declined.    Perhaps the eBay staff  member sandhya@ebay  who has been able to supply details on this program for us can provide some insight on this matter as well.  

While I think this program will have benefits for newbie sellers who are plagued with the phony offers from the typical "text me scammers" who never pay,  it has some issues that are unacceptable to buyers at this time.  Yours seems to be another one that nobody would be aware of had you not posted.  Again, thanks!  

[mudshark61369]

@the_grille_badge_guy, @ittybitnot ,

I decided to call my banker, and surprise surprise they answered their phone. 

If you have not read my last reply to @ittybitnot 's question you should before reading this.

It is the vendor (ebay) who authorizes a hold until the transaction is settled/cancelled. That can usually be done the same day a cancellation is transmitted, but usually after banking hours.

However, in the meantime if the hold is in place, and you want to make a purchase over the amount showing on the say card/checking balance, the payment the processor may allow a purchase for more than the displayed balance.   That all depends on the institution's (PayPal's) operating procedures, and possibly the account holder's record with the institution.

@the_grille_badge_guy, If I am correct in thinking that you paid with a PayPal balance, they might not accept a  transaction for more than the displayed balance, unless you also have a Card on file they can use to settle the balance if needed.   After all since PayPal as the processor guarantees a payment authorized by them to a vendor. They are the one who would have to collect from an account holder who over drew their account. Banks each have different overdraft rules, some depending on an account holder's status with them.

"Anyway, the offer was IMMEDIATELY declined (eBay should have known my offer was too low right before asking for my payment info)".

I do not agree, that would be showing the hand of one party in a negotiation. Even with an auto declined offer, a seller can look at it and send a counter offer.  Maybe the item has been listed for so long, they might let it go for less than the auto decline price, if they check those offers. Haven't you ever haggled with someone who says the least I will take is X$ and talked them down?

"ANYWAY, I got a notification from Paypal that I made a payment to eBay for that amount right after".

What they should have done was notify sellers and buyers IMO, of the payment info requirement and immediate hold for a buyer's Offer on their payment account, In a separate announcement.

The ability for seller's to opt out of that "buyer requirement" should have been prominently mentioned.  Because of the way it is being handled it is going to drive buyers away from making offers, and it prevents multiple purchase invoices from being sent costing sellers extra effort.

If ebay did not notify PayPal about the offer hold policy, you can only blame them. However, now you know the payment has not yet left PayPal the transaction details say Pending, its a matter of notifications and processing procedures.

[the_grille_badge_guy]

Hi, You said:

I do not agree, that would be showing the hand of one party in a negotiation. Even with an auto declined the offer, a seller can look at it and send a counter offer.  

This is not accurate, and AUTO decline the offer, the seller is not even notified. That is my point, the giant website of eBay has many technical things going on, but I am confident that eBay knows when an offer is getting declined, and if they don't they could fix it with a line of code. 

So far the transaction is still there from the 5th as of 4 pm Eastern, Feb 8th. 

Feb 5, 2022

Order to eBay Pending

$27.55 USD

Look, I have gone to make an offer on something before and eBay has nudged me that I should offer more, which shows the tech exists, they know what the seller has set up to accept or not on the back-end.  Just like I have said many times on this thread if someone is making an offer and the offer is below the seller's threshold to auto decline that offers should not be "pended" against anyone's bank account. It is lunacy honestly.  

And yes, big credit card buyers may not even notice the pending stuff. 

[ittybitnot]

I asked my banker about the charge hold because there are a number of topics about people thinking they have been double charged. They see the hold deduction on an account, then the actual charge later, and think they were charged twice. If they check their balance they will find they have only actually been "charged" once.

@mudshark61369 

Here is another thread about that very thing.  It appears that the initial "charge hold" or "authorization" in these instances does not fall off in a timely manner, and remains in place AFTER the real charge comes through.   For example, you make a $400 purchase with your debit card and you have $700 in your bank account..  There is the first charge hold for $400 leaves you with $300 to play with.   When the real $400 charge comes through,  the first is still there (and still staying in place for a now undetermined amount of time), leaving you NOT ENOUGH money to handle both.   Can we say NSF time anyone?  

Since it is being done from eBay's payment processing end, I think this is some new tactic being employed with a charge hold being enabled for we have never had such complaints before.  I guess it is not just the buyers that  had to front a payment source for an offer and were declined that are running into problems with  this issue.  

I guess these people were only "charged twice for a little while", but enough to mess up their financing when the overdrafts hit:  

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Buying/Double-charges/td-p/32424899

[d-k_treasures]

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@ittybitnot wrote:

I asked my banker about the charge hold because there are a number of topics about people thinking they have been double charged. They see the hold deduction on an account, then the actual charge later, and think they were charged twice. If they check their balance they will find they have only actually been "charged" once.

@mudshark61369 

Here is another thread about that very thing.  It appears that the initial "charge hold" or "authorization" in these instances does not fall off in a timely manner, and remains in place AFTER the real charge comes through.   For example, you make a $400 purchase with your debit card and you have $700 in your bank account..  There is the first charge hold for $400 leaves you with $300 to play with.   When the real $400 charge comes through,  the first is still there (and still staying in place for a now undetermined amount of time), leaving you NOT ENOUGH money to handle both.   Can we say NSF time anyone?  

Since it is being done from eBay's payment processing end, I think this is some new tactic being employed with a charge hold being enabled for we have never had such complaints before.  I guess it is not just the buyers that  had to front a payment source for an offer and were declined that are running into problems with  this issue.  

I guess these people were only "charged twice for a little while", but enough to mess up their financing when the overdrafts hit:  

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Buying/Double-charges/td-p/32424899

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THAT is not supposed to happen. When a vendor settles the transaction, they are supposed to link the auth # to the settlement, which removes the authorization hold. If the hold is still in place, I would call my CC/bank to  have them remove it.

Used to be that with visa and mastercard, one of them(I forget which) would hold the auth for 30 days, the other for 7(unless settled using the auth/receipt #).  Now I believe they are both 7 days. 

Another thing is that unless there is a deposit or special order, the CC is not supposed to be charged until the item is shipped. This is how it works on Shopify and every retailer web site, and it's the way it's supposed to work. Order something from a Shopify shop or a retailer web site(like Nordstrom, Macys, etc.), it authorizes the card, sends the order to wherever, and when it's shipped and a tracking # is uploaded to the site, the card is charged(settled) with the authorization/receipt # removing the hold.

[the_grille_badge_guy]

Thanks for that update, I added my story to that thread. 

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Buying/Double-charges/td-p/32424899

Today the charge is still pending from eBay for those curious, so the offer was made last Friday morning, today is Wednesday, eBay probably does nothing and waits for banks to force it off through their time limits. This means Huntington Bank, Chase Bank, and Paypal, these charges may fall off at varying time frames. 

[the_grille_badge_guy]

I just wanted to add, I dug into the Paypal Transaction and I'll be... it says this

Order Status: PENDING

Order Expiration Date: Feb 15, 2022, 1:56:10 PM

This charge will remain for 10 days from the moment I made the offer - WOW

[d-k_treasures]

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@the_grille_badge_guy wrote:

I just wanted to add, I dug into the Paypal Transaction and I'll be... it says this

Order Status: PENDING

Order Expiration Date: Feb 15, 2022, 1:56:10 PM

This charge will remain for 10 days from the moment I made the offer - WOW

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Wow - that's really going to hurt some people who make an offer, have it declined, and try to make another offer to someone else(or buy it) because PP is going to tie that money up for 10 days!!

[ittybitnot]

Order Status: PENDING

Order Expiration Date: Feb 15, 2022, 1:56:10 PM

@the_grille_badge_guy 

Thanks for the updated information.  The issue you presented is also being discussed on the seller update thread announcing this program starting with post #47:


https://community.ebay.com/t5/2022-Winter-Seller-Update/Question-thread-Reducing-unpaid-items/td-p/3...

I don't know if any staff will address this issue, but you may wish to take a look. 

[ittybitnot]

Wow - that's really going to hurt some people who make an offer, have it declined, and try to make another offer to someone else(or buy it) because PP is going to tie that money up for 10 days!!

@d-k_treasures 

I can see it as a problem even if PayPal is not in the mix.  A "pending" hold using a card, makes the money NOT available as well.