sold my car on eBay, PayPal reversed payment after delivery

[eddieo45]

buyer seemed legit (of course, right?): messaged me on eBay and followed up with a text asking when we could talk on the phone. he had a Brooklyn phone number but was in Vegas, and a Google search of the number seemed to support that. we spoke several times, did a FaceTime "test drive" and exchanged dozens of texts. he paid the $1000 deposit on my eBay listing, for which I was charged the 2.9% PayPal fee, then he "friends and family" PayPal'ed me the balance. a friend who sells cars for a living advised me to move the money out of the PayPal account and into my bank as soon as possible, which I did. delivery took a week or so to coordinate, as he sent me transport company info and it took a while to coordinate, and he called me excitedly when the car arrived, thanking me and saying it was nicer than he'd hoped. the next day I got two emails from PayPal "We're reviewing a payment reversal..." for each of the payments, allowing me to enter the scantest details at Resolution Center. Oddly, the "We're reviewing a payment reversal..." emails began "We recently notified you that a payment you received was made without the account holder's permission, or was the result of a transaction error" but they were my first notification. Within hours of me entering the sale and delivery info I got more emails from PayPal, "We've completed our review....We’ve confirmed the transaction was unauthorized and have refunded $8,750.00...." My PayPal balance is now a negative $9700 or so, as the $1000 deposit is also "on hold". I called PayPal and pleaded my case and they said they'd review the sale, and that it would take 11 days (??!). Around this time I got a voicemail from the buyer (from a different phone number, only seven digits of which show up) stating that his ex-wife has hacked into his accounts. By then the title I had signed over to him had arrived by Priority Mail. I exported about 12 pages of text messages between the buyer and me and uploaded them to the PayPal Resolution Center. I tried to unlink my bank account info but was not allowed, but my bank assures me that PayPal cannot claw back the funds. Oddly enough, a good 36 hours after the "case closed" emails I received a "Case Opened" email from PayPal, this time for the amount $9,004.05, which is what the $8750 would have cost him had he not sent it friends and family.

The Brooklyn phone number is now out of service, of course. Should I be dealing with law enforcement and/or consumer protection agency?

[eddieo45]

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@sam9876 wrote:

You don't need proof of delivery for a car.

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@sam9876according to PayPal, you do. And as they acknowledge that proving that is difficult, they actually said to me "that's why we don't recommend using PayPal for things like this."

[lacemaker3]

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@eddieo45 wrote:

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@sam9876 wrote:

You don't need proof of delivery for a car.

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@sam9876according to PayPal, you do. And as they acknowledge that proving that is difficult, they actually said to me "that's why we don't recommend using PayPal for things like this."

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I'm sorry, but it's easy to have a misunderstanding when you are talking to a customer service representative, on either side. In this case, you would have needed proof of delivery to win, if the transaction was eligible, but it wasn't eligible for a couple of reasons, so it wouldn't have made any difference.

You don't need proof of delivery for a car, because a payment for a vehicle is not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. So it doesn't make any difference if you have proof of delivery or not for this transaction.

This transaction was also not eligible for Seller Protection because it was sent through Friends and Family.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#s3-seller-protection

[albertabrightalberta]

@eddieo45

I'm late in seeing this mess and sorry it happened.

Has the case been resolved? I'm interested in an update.

[eddieo45]

resolved, yes, but no thanks to eBay or PayPal. I don't recall if I mentioned it above, but just before the PayPal payment was reversed, (a) the buyer left me a voicemail stating his "crazy ex had hacked into" his accounts and that I should ignore any messages that seem to come from him or any calls from an "Amy", and (b) I got an eBay message that appeared to be from the buyer asking "did someone pick up this car on the 17th (the date of the sale). I filed a claim with my car insurer, and they requested I file a local police report. While gathering some details to bring to the police I saw that eBay message and decided to respond to it, "The car was delivered to you on 1/29." I didn't expect a response, but I got one: "I need this to stop. This matter has already been sent to eBay, PayPal, my banks, and everybody else concerned. Any other questions can be directed to the police. There is no car here, no car in my possession. If you have been swindled I’m sorry to hear that but I want no part of any of this." We went back and forth a little and he messaged me a phone number. I called it and he asked if he could call me right back, which he did. He maintained that his phone had been stolen and he had nothing to do with my car sale; he complained about losing all of his wedding videos that were on his phone. I said to him that even if I were to accept that he was scammed, he would have to understand that I was scammed FAR WORSE, and that he is far from finished telling this story, now that my police case and insurance claim were just beginning. I said to him that he would have to admit that it's very odd that whoever stole his phone passed himself off as him for 12 pages of iMessages over a 12 day period, and directed me to send the car and the title to HIS name and address. Suddenly a woman's voice asks "do you still have those messages?" and the line went dead. He called back and apologized for that interruption, but did not explain it. He had stated that when he received the title in the mail he took it to the police without opening the envelope, so as not to get his fingerprints on whatever the contents were(!), and I asked him to either retrieve the title and return it to me or give a name of someone at LV Police to call. While I was at my local police station waiting for an officer I got another eBay message: "Eddie, I’m his wife. Please call me..."

Long story (slightly) short(er), the wife is named Amy, and I sent her screenshots of the iMessages and forwarded the voicemail. She eventually got back to me and said she would get me my car back after her husband "got out of the hospital", as he had a breakdown after she confronted him with the evidence I had provided. He called me from the hospital to say he was going to "make this right." I told him I want the money, not the car. It took him a month to send me about $1500 and another couple of weeks to send me another $8500 or so (he rounded up the sale price). Once all the funds cleared I resent him the title he had returned to me. It turned out the car had been towed the day he went into the hospital and he had to pay towing and storage fees in excess of $1400. He has not yet registered it as he needs a "VIN inspection" but he has a "movement permit"; those must be peculiar to Nevada.

Given all the twists and turns and the fact that he used his real name, I have no idea what his original scam plan was, but he promises to give me an explanation. I have since bought a Mercedes SL, which is making me feel a little better each day.

[albertabrightalberta]

Thanks for the update. Check your messages.

[sugarnspice777]

Its insane the stress someone puts you though when they realize there not playing around with someone who is just going to back down and take it.  Claps and kudos to you for following thru every step and stopping a scammer!  Sorry you had to go through so much though!

[jump.for.joy]

Wow, thanks for the update. I'm glad this ended up well after all of that!

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@eddieo45 wrote:

...

... He has not yet registered it as he needs a "VIN inspection" but he has a "movement permit"; those must be peculiar to Nevada.

Given all the twists and turns and the fact that he used his real name, I have no idea what his original scam plan was, but he promises to give me an explanation. I have since bought a Mercedes SL, which is making me feel a little better each day.

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Is there a way to record the sale with the DMV in your state? I'd be worried because until it is registered in his name, it is still in your name. 

Given that he ended up having a breakdown and in the hospital, It's possible that whatever plan he had, would not be recognizable as a "plan" to a reasonable person. In his mind, there probably wan't any "scam" at any time.

[albertabrightalberta]

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Given that he ended up having a breakdown and in the hospital, It's possible that whatever plan he had, would not be recognizable as a "plan" to a reasonable person. In his mind, there probably wan't any "scam" at any time.

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That assumes that the "pregnant wife" and "breakdown" stories are true. 

I'm not sure anything in the "buyer's" story was true.

[ohnojoey]

Amazing story of a couple of con artists who tried to steal your car and money, who, from reading all your posts, used every gaslighting trick, bullying, lying, poor me stories, and intimidation tactics.

It seems to me, this couple only admitted they had the car that they had previously denied having or knowing anything about, when the "wife" asked you if you still had those (incriminating) messages, and seeing that you did, knew their game was over.("Suddenly a woman's voice asks "do you still have those messages?")

Glad you got your money back!

I would not communicate with them anymore if they did in fact "get back to you" as they sound like they are professional thieves.

Leave them now, in the dust. 

[clu3]

That really stinks.  People are so horrible!

Remember when we could REQUIRE payment with money order or certified bank check?

[mg152]

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@fab_finds4u wrote:

SMH, you ignored a red flag-  being in Vegas but having a Brooklyn phone is suspicious.   

Sellers should get CASH in hand before they ship.  From the buyer's hand to yours. That's the only way to know for certain you won't be scammed. 

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Not necessarily true. We all still have our VA cell numbers in FL. Too much trouble to change them everywhere. My friend moved from FL to NH and took her home phone number with her.

[eddieo45]

good point; I couldn't take the time to respond to the many commenters that were just plain wrong; I'm in the cellular phone industry, and phone numbers have been portable for many years. In fact I have several friends that live in Las Vegas and none has a Vegas number.

[albertabrightalberta]

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@clu3 wrote:

That really stinks.  People are so horrible!

Remember when we could REQUIRE payment with money order or certified bank check?

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Both of which are faked by scammers. 

[mg152]

Nice car. I just saw this and was very disturbed. I’m glad you got your money. Either the wife, his conscience or both got him or maybe fear of prison. Next time you sell a car, sell it locally for cash and get something signed.
Back in the 80’s I got hit head on so I sold my beloved car for parts. The buyer stripped it and left it on the side of the road. The police came knocking at my door telling me to go get my car or be billed for towing and storage but luckily I had a signed bill of sale so I was out if it. That was in FL.
Unbelievably, some years later the same thing happened to me in VA. Why people buy a car the abandon it is beyond me. Both times I had a bill of sale signed and I had removed the tags and insurance. The police found me through the VIN number.
This car scamming is not new but the Internet makes it easier.

[mg152]

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@eddieo45 wrote:

good point; I couldn't take the time to respond to the many commenters that were just plain wrong; I'm in the cellular phone industry, and phone numbers have been portable for many years. In fact I have several friends that live in Las Vegas and none has a Vegas number.

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I did not mention your details but I asked about this yesterday at the weekly chat with eBay staff. I had to leave early so I don’t know if I got an answer, I’ll check later but I wanted to know how this could even happen. Here’s the link if you wanna check it out. What happened to you is very disturbing and wrong.

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Weekly-Chat-with-eBay-Staff/bd-p/weekly-chat