"No returns" apparently means nothing

[jedimasterq]

So, I sold a phone (Vivo Nex S) in near mint condition to a seller, who I won't name (although I should), who has 100% perfect feedback.  My listing clearly stated no returns, sale was final. He asked some questions on its use and I answered.  He then claimed it didn't work (wifi drops, sim not working, camera "binning" or some such nonsense).  Told him it worked perfectly with At&t and had no issues at all with wifi and sim, etc. Never a problem with the camera.  I think he made up a **bleep** defective report due to him not having a clue on how the phone worked (chinese model, but in english, Android 9, etc) or him not liking it.  Told him it was not defective and no refund will be offered.  I even opened a potential fraud case on him.  He decided to open a return case.  Ebay/PP held payment on me.  I gave up and told him to send it back.  Is there any point to the "no returns" policy or is it truly meaningless since someone can make up whatever they want to return it? Btw I got it back, and it does work 100% flawlessly.  

[thehonorabletrader]

You are correct in the "No Returns" doesn't really mean anything, except when it does. If the buyer would have opened a return for "Changed Mind" you would have the option of accepting it. 

However, the eBay User Agreement that you agreed to states that you agree to the eBay Money Back Guarantee and if a buyer makes a claim under the agreement you would accept it. It sounds like you did not read the terms or fully understand. 

Why? Why does eBay Force a Return when I say "no"?

This is the most common question I see. 

Visa, MasterCard, Discover, American Express and PayPal all require YOU as the seller to accept their Buyer Protection agreement before you are allowed to accept it. For example, you can not agree to accept a Visa card without having to agree that Visa has the sole right to decide in their buyer protection against you and you have no recourse. 

This is the nature of credit cards. 

So why? Well, eBay knows that the buyer can ultimately do a charge back with their credit card companies. With the exception of PayPal, none of them do anything to try and get the item back to the seller. 

So, when a buyer is upset, they have two options...

Option 1 - File a Payment Dispute with the payment provider and get a refund without returning the item

Option 2 - Return the item for a refund if the seller will accept it. 

eBay knows that Option 1 is going to really upset you and it's completely outside of their control. So, they will "protect" the seller by forcing them into option 2 that way they at least get the item back since they are more than likely going to lose the money anyway via a dispute. 

Managed Payments May Help

As has been pointed out in this forum eBay is moving to manage payments directly. They use Adyen and other tools that Adyen also uses to perform risk assessments now. So if a buyer has had too many disputes eBay can simply say "nope, you can't use that card anymore, you've burned our sellers too many times with it". This will make buyers mad and the only recourse is to use a new card or to go to a different platform where they can victimize other sellers. 

Ultimately your situation sucks. I am not disputing that. I am just explaining from a "Devils' Advocate" point of view why eBay takes the approach they do and how it's beneficial to sellers even though it still sucks. 

[nc-daydreamer]

No returns only means that you don't want the item back - it does not mean no refunds.  Unscrupulous buyers do this daily. Anytime they don't want the item and don't want to pay postage, they often open a case, forcing the issue. At least you were lucky, you got your item back.

Many have gotten a box of used cat litter back and still had to refund in full and pay round trip postage. Or the item had been purposely totally destroyed just to send it back. These disputes happen for items worth thousands of dollars. And then the seller can get a defect on top of that. Buyers know this.

Welcome to eBay.

[coolections]

Sorry you did not know that but no returns has meant nothing for a few years now. There is no such thing as no returns here on Ebay and most every selling site on the net.

[lex-talon]

"No returns" apparently means nothing

Yes, that's true. Especially when a buyer claims an item is INAD. You did the right thing by asking the buyer to return your item and item was returned. 

[atikovi]

The line in your current description, 

Sales Conditions :

Sold As-Is, No Returns

has no meaning.

Ebay put in your listing:

Seller does not offer returns.

Refer to eBay Return policy for more details. You are covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee if you receive an item that is not as described in the listing.

That trumps anything you may write.

[7606dennis]

A NO RETURNS policy only applies to remorse returns.  Not as described cases come under the MBG.  If they didn't there would probably be many false advertising fraud claims filed against some eBay sellers.

[mam98031]

The return policies options are as follows.

1. No Returns
2. 30 day returns w/ buyer pays shipping
3. 60 day returns w/ buyer pays shipping
4. 30 day returns w/ seller pays shipping, AKA Free Returns
5. 60 day returns w/ seller pays shipping. ALA Free Returns

With option number 1, No Returns the seller can completely deny taking a return for a Buyer's Remorse Return Request.  Or if they want to they can accept the return and have the buyer pay the return shipping.  If the seller so chooses they can withhold the original shipping if it was separately stated on the listing [not free shipping] when it is time to refund the buyer.

On options 2 & 3 the buyer is responsible for the return shipping on a Buyer's Remorse Return.  Plus if the seller so chooses they can withhold the original shipping if it was separately stated on the listing [not free shipping] when it is time to refund the buyer.

On options 4 & 5 above, they are also known as Free Returns.  If a seller that has either of those policies they will pay the return shipping even on a buyer's remorse return.  A seller can withhold the original shipping value from the refund if the shipping was separately stated in the listing [not free shipping].  Also Seller’s offering options 4 or 5 have the ability to do partial refunds in certain cases if the item arrives back damaged, missing something or in a condition less than what it was sent to the buyer in, see the policy for more details, the link is below.  In the cases where a deduction in the refund is taken due to damage or other authorized reasons for a partial refund, Ebay will protect the seller from negative or neutral feedback.

ALL OPTIONS [1, 2, 3, 4 and 5] are required to process SNAD claims without exception.  Even if they are improperly filed and should have been a Buyer’s Remorse claim.

All return policies by sellers must meet or exceed what is stated in the Money Back Guarantee Policy!

[d12_dist]

I do not mind the policy, I mind the deceptive language.  Just be 100% open & honest.  "NO! Returns" is simply an inaccurate way to describe this option.  "Situational No Returns!" does not sound as MEME, cutesy or good.  However, its a great & open - no hidden gimmicks 'option'.  I wish they were more clear - I do.

[mam98031]

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@d12_dist wrote:

I do not mind the policy, I mind the deceptive language.  Just be 100% open & honest.  "NO! Returns" is simply an inaccurate way to describe this option.  "Situational No Returns!" does not sound as MEME, cutesy or good.  However, its a great & open - no hidden gimmicks 'option'.  I wish they were more clear - I do.

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Ebay has always said that sellers return policy must meet or exceed the MBG.  

A No Return policy is allowed because a seller does not have to accept returns.  But that does not mean they don't have to give refunds.  

[kensgiftshop]

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@jedimasterq wrote:

 Btw I got it back, and it does work 100% flawlessly.  

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Be glad you got it back and not a rock or some broken phone.

[7606dennis]

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@d12_dist wrote:

I do not mind the policy, I mind the deceptive language.  Just be 100% open & honest.  "NO! Returns" is simply an inaccurate way to describe this option.  "Situational No Returns!" does not sound as MEME, cutesy or good.  However, its a great & open - no hidden gimmicks 'option'.  I wish they were more clear - I do.

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Ebay has always said that sellers return policy must meet or exceed the MBG.  

A No Return policy is allowed because a seller does not have to accept returns.  But that does not mean they don't have to give refunds.  

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Actually, I don't believe that a return under the MBG is technically considered a return by eBay.  I believe that they consider them to be more like recalls since the item didn't precisely correspond to the advertised description for one reason or another.

The NO RETURNS policy of a seller can only apply to buyer's remorse type returns where the buyer for some reason other than not being as described when arriving, no longer wants the item.

[mam98031]

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@7606dennis wrote:

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@mam98031 wrote:

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@d12_dist wrote:

I do not mind the policy, I mind the deceptive language.  Just be 100% open & honest.  "NO! Returns" is simply an inaccurate way to describe this option.  "Situational No Returns!" does not sound as MEME, cutesy or good.  However, its a great & open - no hidden gimmicks 'option'.  I wish they were more clear - I do.

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Ebay has always said that sellers return policy must meet or exceed the MBG.  

A No Return policy is allowed because a seller does not have to accept returns.  But that does not mean they don't have to give refunds.  

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Actually, I don't believe that a return under the MBG is technically considered a return by eBay.  I believe that they consider them to be more like recalls since the item didn't precisely correspond to the advertised description for one reason or another.

The NO RETURNS policy of a seller can only apply to buyer's remorse type returns where the buyer for some reason other than not being as described when arriving, no longer wants the item.

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That is just semantics.  I don't think it has any bearing on the conversation.  You are welcome to call it whatever works for you but it is likely just to cause confusion to use different words or terminology that Ebay does.

Your statement about No Return policies is simplified a little too much.  All sellers have the right not to accept returns of any kind if they have a No Return policy.  It CAN mean exactly what it says, NO RETURN.  But with that said, if an INAD is filed, the seller can still say NO RETURN, but they will end up having to refund the buyer. 

It is the seller with the NO Return policies choice on an INAD.  They can accept the return and refund once they have it back.  Or they can tell the buyer that they will not accept the return and then refund the buyer without a return happening.

You are correct, as I said before, those with a No return policy can refuse to process a request for return for something that was filed with a Buyer Remorse reason.  However it is important to know that if they file an INAD and you know from what they said in the Request or via email that it really was a Buyer's Remorse return, you can not refuse the refund.  You can refuse to take the return, but you will need to refund that buyer.

Sellers have no choice.  Their return policies must meet or exceed what is outlined in the MBG.