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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

There was a question today on the ebay for business podcast about using "subtitle" in an ebay listing. I'll skip the details, but thought this quote was worth repeating, from long time ebay exec Brian Burke brian_burke@ebay 

 

"Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give  to us. ... if you can successfully sell your item without doing it. And that's why we encourage folks to test, because that will allow you to optimize the dollars you spend on eBay, which means you're gonna keep selling on eBay, which is good for eBay and good for you. And for some things like you sell , really unique items, rarely do you need something like some of the features that we offer."

 

I agree with this. There is a big difference between something ebay requires (for example, the required item specifics for a certain category) and the many optional features and tools ebay provides, which might or might not be useful for a particular seller. My own take on this:

 

For any optional feature/tool:

 

1. If you are convinced it won't help your business, ignore it.

2. If you think it MIGHT help your business, experiment with it.

3. If the experiment shows it doesn't help you, don't use it.

4. If the experiment shows it does help you, go ahead and use it.

 

Examples from my own business:

 

1. Promoted Listing Advanced: Ignore.

2. Coded Coupons: Experiment. 

 

ebay is huge, and there are a lot of different business models here, and ebay provides a lot of optional features and tools. The Vault?  I doubt I will ever use it. But , obviously, some sellers will benefit from it. Promoted Listings? Useful for some sellers, not a good fit for others. Much of the data provided by Seller Hub is much more useful for sellers of multi-quantity listings, but some is useful for sellers like me, with long tail one offs....

 

Use whatever you find works for you. 

 

 

 

 

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@siamjane8 wrote:

 

Spot on @zamo-zuan - Although I might add that the impressions were not free before promoted listings. That is what we paid our FVF for- site visibility and potential for sales....... With PL, ebay basically devalued the FVF and charges more if you "really" want to get impressions.  Its unfortune but as you mentioned it seems like they are actually suppressing organic results now if you do not promote. Almost criminal but I'm sure the TOS is rock solid.   In either event PL are not good for the seller, buyer, or the platform- just short term profit for shareholders that buy and sell on a whim. I can all but guarantee there is not a CEO out there with the guts to actually make ebay great again by focusing on platform growth instead of short term gains.


Yeah, I just mean free in the sense that it wasn't literally pay for impressions.

 

Prior to PL, the biggest increase of traffic to your listings was your product history. This wasn't great for sellers of used items/etc (which is why some people hated Cassini). Cassini was built for "new" items, though, and for that product type it made sense. Basically if you sold an item, made a happy customer, and got repeat customers to return to buy more items, giving your item a solid product history, that gave you better placement in search.

 

For new items, it made sense. It was a natural design to lead to growth by doing your job. The better you took care of the customers, the more they returned, and the more your listings moved up in search. It was great for sellers of new items, and for customers. It gave incentive on giving them better prices and better CS.

 

Nowadays, you're basically punished if you give stellar CS to your customers. Because eBay doesn't recognize your investment and return customers don't improve your search placement. Feedback doesn't matter to search at all anymore.

 

So you might get a happy customer who might return, but eBay isn't recognizing your investment, and financially it's only a loss. Because that now happy customer still opened a case that's now counting against your metrics and what they chose at the time of opening the case is what determines the metrics, not the outcome. 

 

When they first introduced PL, I was concerned about eBay growth. Because the more people invest in PL, the more the average eBay price goes up (and that was eBay's biggest strength as a market - they can't compete in shipping time, CS, etc... So the strength was cheapest prices). They basically gave that advantage away.

 

 1% investment used to be enough, which wasn't ideal, but was acceptable. Now that they've made it to where your ORGANIC traffic suffers without it, it's simply a subtle fee increase. You're not just "missing out on the boons of PL" if you don't invest, you're heavily punished unless you not only invest, but invest a great enough amount for eBay to allow you traffic. 

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@siamjane8 wrote:

@zamo-zuan 

By definition, organic (unpaid) traffic isn't intended to be altered by promoted traffic.

 

Isn't that the truth! The FVF is tied to a service that they have severely limited- organic impressions

      Ebay has clearly struggled with search engine algorithms for many years- moving towards Google's rejected Cassini AI search engine was a huge step backwards- now the whole search has been built on a set of code that GOOGLE deemed a failed version and sold to Ebay!

     That being said- every additional query or demand that they put on the search engine such as PL, interpreting additional cookies, constant item specific changes, general tinkering- has made it one of if the the most irrelevant search engine on the internet- forcing its users to go off site 90% of the time to find active items on ebay !!


Just wanted to clarify, Cassini was actually different from their AI backed search engine they began using in 2017-2018. Since then we're on something different. 

 

And Google's problems with eBay were the fault of eBay's implementation. This was a problem they had on both search engines (and still are having today lol). 

 

I would gladly take Cassini over their AI backed engine. Although as I'd mentioned, Cassini was definitely not ideal for used items/collectibles and heavily favored new items, so it wasn't ideal for everything. But this is another place eBay has failed - they try the "one size fits all" approach rather than giving appropriate solutions for different product types.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@my-cottage-books-and-antiques wrote:

@zamo-zuan Well,  just looked at some of my numbers, and it looks like I might need to go back to the drawing board. I thought ebay had fixed this, but comparing some random dates from my last campaign with the Traffic Report, I am seeing the same number of PL impressions (as I would expect) but the organic are higher in the Traffic report....either I did not have all my listings included in the last campaign (I thought I did, but I'm not 100% sure) or there is something else going on here.

 

Sigh.

 

Guess I'll have to waste time running some tests over the next couple weeks, and maybe badgering ebay for more info LOL


If you figure out any changes I'd love to hear them, I try to stay up to date with how eBay's systems work as much as possible as that's needed to compete nowadays. It's sadly not about competing with your customers nowadays, but about figuring out how to please eBay's AI. As that's what will get you traffic/views/conversions, and from there it's simple math to calculate your sales.

 

There's definitely some bugs in the traffic report as well. I have my suspicions that a lot of the problems people face may be related to this, but it's not something I have proof of. But it makes sense, as if the numbers being used in the algorithm are not correct, then the algorithm can't possibly be working as intended. And if they then make further changes to the algorithm based on the results, the algorithm is being built on top of the error/bugs. Meaning once the bug is fixed, the algorithm will give even less ideal results.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

I'm impressed to see someone in your specific line of business who has your level of knowledge. No offense, but many bulk sellers of aftermarket auto parts on eBay seem to be complete idiots in my experience. I do want to point out though, that the issues you describe that apply to your types of listings and items don't apply to everyone, even some other auto parts sellers.

 

The screenshot below is a search I did in a private window (so not affected by me being logged into eBay). Out of 447 results, my listing is the #1 result, and I don't use promoted listings at all. (Ironically, the second result is a fake product from China with a trademark violation...thanks for taking care of those, eBay!)

 

Point being, if you have fairly obscure items that most other sellers don't have, and you fill out the parts compatibility accurately, buyers can find your parts without promoted listings. I never use promoted listings, and my items (at least the desirable ones) do sell. A lot of the listings I have on eBay are what I would call "long tail" items...things that almost never sell even in an ideal environment. So I do have plenty of listings that have been sitting for ages, but that's not a function of customers being unable to find them. It's more a function of the fact that nobody has a 1984 Pontiac 6000 that runs 😛

 

For your specific line of business, I understand why promoted listings are critical, because you have a lot of competition selling essentially the same items. That's specifically why I don't want to be in that type of business. I'm more interested in looking for unusual items that others don't have, or can't identify and list accurately. For that type of product, I don't see much value in promoted listings.

 

 

 

Screenshot from 2022-07-06 11-50-33.png

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@rimtrim wrote:

I'm impressed to see someone in your specific line of business who has your level of knowledge. No offense, but many bulk sellers of aftermarket auto parts on eBay seem to be complete idiots in my experience. I do want to point out though, that the issues you describe that apply to your types of listings and items don't apply to everyone, even some other auto parts sellers.

 

The screenshot below is a search I did in a private window (so not affected by me being logged into eBay). Out of 447 results, my listing is the #1 result, and I don't use promoted listings at all. (Ironically, the second result is a fake product from China with a trademark violation...thanks for taking care of those, eBay!)

 

Point being, if you have fairly obscure items that most other sellers don't have, and you fill out the parts compatibility accurately, buyers can find your parts without promoted listings. I never use promoted listings, and my items (at least the desirable ones) do sell. A lot of the listings I have on eBay are what I would call "long tail" items...things that almost never sell even in an ideal environment. So I do have plenty of listings that have been sitting for ages, but that's not a function of customers being unable to find them. It's more a function of the fact that nobody has a 1984 Pontiac 6000 that runs 😛

 

For your specific line of business, I understand why promoted listings are critical, because you have a lot of competition selling essentially the same items. That's specifically why I don't want to be in that type of business. I'm more interested in looking for unusual items that others don't have, or can't identify and list accurately. For that type of product, I don't see much value in promoted listings.

 


Haha, thank you for the compliment. We had to stay up to date on how eBay's search worked in order to keep the #1 spot in a competitive category. But once eBay's AI backed search began in 2017-2018, huge drops of ~50% or more became all too common. So I had to stay in constant contact with eBay (with many good, and many very bad experiences). Learning how eBay works became the difference between having to let good employees go due to simply not having the funds coming in from eBay anymore.

 

The reality is, prior to the eBay AI search, we literally making double in sales of what we have now. I know it's a heated debate on here, but the limits the AI imposes on sellers are real, and those at the top of the category hit their limits. Despite such a large drop, we're still #1, meaning all the other top sellers had dropped too. One of the things I tried to bring some visibility to was how the top seller market share was 40% prior to the AI search, and was dropping to nearly 50% of that in just a couple months time (a clear indicator of who was hitting their limits). Coincidentally, right after that eBay prevented sellers from seeing the top seller market share in Terapeak anymore... 

 

You're right, it's true that used items or rare items are a completely different ball game. I wouldn't bother with PL for used item (and I actually excluded a used item from PL this morning).

 

Agree on the China issues. They not only don't punish them (not even as much as they used to) but they used to limit the amount of non-TRS they allowed on top of search results, and now they have no problem letting non-TRS sellers get the top spots.

 

Part compatibility, that's a whole separate ball game, lol. I've been reporting a bug for about 3 years now where many of our items have the vehicle entered and eBay says it is NOT compatible. Check out this listing - 281095856201 - try searching compatibility for the very first vehicle on the list and see what happens, lol. I have that in my notes that I'd reported that issue in 2019 and it's STILL not fixed...

 

But yeah, I just wanted to express how it feels like eBay saying these things are optional is often times a technicality. If you're selling used or rare items, it is optional. But if you're selling new items that aren't rare, your items don't even get visibility without paying. It went from a discouraging/annoying issue when PL first was implemented (but you could get organic impressions still) to a completely pay for visibility system where nowadays they take your organic traffic too. Losing 80-90% of impressions isn't "optional" for sellers who have to keep the bills paid and the doors open, we're forced to pay the fee.

 

So it's a bit frustrating to hear them tell others "don't give us what you don't have to" as that softens the blow by implying it's just an "option that could help". When we see what we've seen, the more sales you increase on eBay, the more it's designed in such an exploitative way that it becomes a requirement. They just don't want it to seem that way to newer sellers are gaining experience. The fact that organic impressions are based upon the promos brings it to a whole new level of exploitation.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

Zamo- that is the perfect word for it. Exploitation. Instead of us being partners as we are told and instead of rewarding the best sellers that offer the very best customer service and bring customers back to ebay- they choose to rig the system to exploit those sellers and force higher fees knowing that as businesses we have to keep the doors open.  

     I do not begrudge ebay and its shareholders making money at all- that is why we are all here. Its just such a predatory way that they do it that prevents sellers from succeeding past there "limits" that is so frustrating.   We saw the same curve as you pre AI. for every 100 listings that we added, predictable sales and growth were always spot on- you could set your watch by it. Then overnight when the search changed it was done. Ever since then it has been a struggle here for predictable growth- in fact going from 1500 listings to 4000 listing has netted no sales growth - once we hit 15,000 in sales divided equally by 4 weeks in a month, the sales stop.   This has been happening for years.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

That's an interesting observation about the organic traffic dropping along with the promoted traffic. For one thing, it suggests you're getting most of your traffic from people who are actually searching on eBay, rather than coming in from Google or wherever directly to your listing. I doubt Google knows or cares which eBay listings have paid promotions, but eBay itself would be free to manipulate your search placement within its own results.

 

I've noticed that sometimes if I list a fairly popular item where I have competition on eBay, and I don't use any promotions, it sits with minimal views for several days, and then suddenly the views start ticking up and the item sells. I theorize this is because Google has picked up the listing and these viewers are coming in from Google results.

 

On parts compatibility...That's a feature that I use and like, but it could use a lot of work. I haven't noticed the glitch you're talking about, but I checked out that listing and I do see it. Do you have any indication of whether the bug is tied to specific vehicles, or to specific listings?

 

The one big thing I would love to see with parts compatibility (this is probably my #1 request for eBay right now) is the ability to easily export a compatibility list to save it as an archive, then import it later when creating a new listing. I have some very complex parts compatibility lists that took hours of research and data entry to create. Because I sell used items and not bulk-purchased new items, I may sell out of an item and not have it again for months or years. By then, the old listing has expired out and I have to start all over.

 

I do save my parts compatibility lists using old-fashioned copy/paste methods, just saving them as text files, because at least that means I only have to do the data entry again rather than losing all the information. I have a few hundred of these lists saved right now, and I'm always adding more. I'd really like to be able to simply push a button in the listing tool and pull a compatibility list in from a text file, the same way I can upload a photo. If you know a way to do this, I'd love to hear it!

 

Finally, on the China sellers and fake products...Particularly in my category, there are huge numbers of items with unauthorized trademarked emblems stuck on, and many are listed in a deceptive way. I don't even really mind that stuff being on eBay as long as customers are clearly told that it's not the same as the genuine items that I sell. But nothing seems to be done to police it, so I just have to dance around the issue by noting which parts are widely available as knock-offs and focusing on the ones that aren't.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

Very helpful. Thanks.noticed that too.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@siamjane8 wrote:

Zamo- that is the perfect word for it. Exploitation. Instead of us being partners as we are told and instead of rewarding the best sellers that offer the very best customer service and bring customers back to ebay- they choose to rig the system to exploit those sellers and force higher fees knowing that as businesses we have to keep the doors open.  

     I do not begrudge ebay and its shareholders making money at all- that is why we are all here. Its just such a predatory way that they do it that prevents sellers from succeeding past there "limits" that is so frustrating.   We saw the same curve as you pre AI. for every 100 listings that we added, predictable sales and growth were always spot on- you could set your watch by it. Then overnight when the search changed it was done. Ever since then it has been a struggle here for predictable growth- in fact going from 1500 listings to 4000 listing has netted no sales growth - once we hit 15,000 in sales divided equally by 4 weeks in a month, the sales stop.   This has been happening for years.


Yep. With enough sales you could see exactly where the algorithms change on the graph, and once the changes settle, you can predict what is going to happen until the next algorithm change. And you could see all the top sellers in your category capped at the same amount of feedback/year (with none being able to surpass it). 

 

These are just some of the many ways you can see the limits, by the way. 

 

But one thing is proven without a doubt by these results: EBay's "organic" traffic is not actually organic at all. Their search will allow or prevent you from appearing in organic search depending on how much you invest in promotions. (You could observe this with other traffic statistics as well). This wasn't always the case, and until last year, promotions did not change your organic traffic. But as of 2021, as shown in the graphs, eBay can no longer even attempt to deny that their search controls how much visibility a seller receives.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

Well I would have to agree especially with all this inflation and lower sales that upping your price to promote it is not a very good idea AT ALL.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

EXPOSURE across many different ad channels would be a more effective way however that is probably going to cost you a pretty penny to do as well.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

Every CEO that has ever been on here has been into short term. Grappling with this economy right now is a very large feat. Let’s hope THIS ceo knows what he is doing for long term growth.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."

The short term stuff has to be dealt with with the long ternm stuff with the short term stuff aimed at keeping these stock people happy and not loosing their butts, or getting scared and pulling their bucks out.

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@rimtrim wrote:

That's an interesting observation about the organic traffic dropping along with the promoted traffic. For one thing, it suggests you're getting most of your traffic from people who are actually searching on eBay, rather than coming in from Google or wherever directly to your listing. I doubt Google knows or cares which eBay listings have paid promotions, but eBay itself would be free to manipulate your search placement within its own results.

 

I've noticed that sometimes if I list a fairly popular item where I have competition on eBay, and I don't use any promotions, it sits with minimal views for several days, and then suddenly the views start ticking up and the item sells. I theorize this is because Google has picked up the listing and these viewers are coming in from Google results.

 

On parts compatibility...That's a feature that I use and like, but it could use a lot of work. I haven't noticed the glitch you're talking about, but I checked out that listing and I do see it. Do you have any indication of whether the bug is tied to specific vehicles, or to specific listings?

 

The one big thing I would love to see with parts compatibility (this is probably my #1 request for eBay right now) is the ability to easily export a compatibility list to save it as an archive, then import it later when creating a new listing. I have some very complex parts compatibility lists that took hours of research and data entry to create. Because I sell used items and not bulk-purchased new items, I may sell out of an item and not have it again for months or years. By then, the old listing has expired out and I have to start all over.

 

I do save my parts compatibility lists using old-fashioned copy/paste methods, just saving them as text files, because at least that means I only have to do the data entry again rather than losing all the information. I have a few hundred of these lists saved right now, and I'm always adding more. I'd really like to be able to simply push a button in the listing tool and pull a compatibility list in from a text file, the same way I can upload a photo. If you know a way to do this, I'd love to hear it!

 

Finally, on the China sellers and fake products...Particularly in my category, there are huge numbers of items with unauthorized trademarked emblems stuck on, and many are listed in a deceptive way. I don't even really mind that stuff being on eBay as long as customers are clearly told that it's not the same as the genuine items that I sell. But nothing seems to be done to police it, so I just have to dance around the issue by noting which parts are widely available as knock-offs and focusing on the ones that aren't.


Yep, not too much comes from Google ad's. And eBay actually does manipulate the placement with their results. One thing that has happened for years, we go through our ads that appear on Google, and often times one of the listings that claims to be for one of our items will take us to a COMPETITORS item. Meaning whatever item is linked on Google is just kind of a "reference" and not a link to the actual listing, and can sometimes be a "similar" item.

 

It's funny you mention the views on an item. There's ways you could play with that and that I've tested. If you're in any off-eBay groups and find an item that hasn't been getting any traffic, try sending it to the group and having a bunch of friends check it out. That sudden burst in traffic will encourage eBay to send even more traffic to it. It seems the algorithm thinks there's sudden interest in the item and sends more people. Doing this has "woken up" some listings that have fell off for months/years and restored them to getting traffic.

 

The part compatibility issue is actually tied to whatever they did when they updated their vehicle system. So if you look closely, the item in the chart selection does NOT match the item in the search for Engine. One of them has "Cubic Inches" the other does not. Problem is, the create listing/revise page engines do NOT match the view page/search engines in the dropdown. So we can't just remove the vehicles and re-add, no matter what we do, the info doesn't match. EBay messed up their catalog migration, apparently.

 

There's other issues with vehicle fitment, too. Certain vehicles on the list could be just straight up invalid (which is hard to notice on the site itself, but using our in-house software, we can see just how many items on the list are invalid, and it seems completely random).

 

Yup, the compatibility charts definitely need work! Especially because the eBay tool doesn't just go by model/year/engine and also gets in depth in to trim. It requires *so many* vehicles at times and it's a huge amount of data/work to support.

 

Regarding China, yeah, a lot of the changes over the years have allowed China to take advantage more and more. For awhile, the system heavily favored cheaper items so they appeared on top. Nowadays price isn't as important, but they now allow non-TRS sellers to appear on the top of search results, they don't factor metrics/feedback in to search, and it seems even delivery time isn't much of a factor in the current algorithm. So China can appear on top despite giving poor service/shipping times.

 

 

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ebay exec: "Don't give money to eBay that you don't have to give to us."


@vintagecraze50 wrote:

Well I would have to agree especially with all this inflation and lower sales that upping your price to promote it is not a very good idea AT ALL.


100% agree.

 

But if you want to actually get profit on eBay, that's mathematically the only way to do it. As shown in our data, if you're dealing in new items you have to invest quite a bit in PL. Investing enough to get decent visibility for your items - which 1-2% will leave you at a small percentage fraction of the impressions.

 

Once you've invested enough, that cuts your margins down to nearly nothing. So you have to increase prices to compensate, and find the "sweet spot" between investment and increased prices.

 

I've been saying for years, this is one of the main problems with the promotion system. It brings eBay prices as a whole up. And it's damaging to the businesses. Just consider, more outgoing orders to pack, with less profit margin per sale. More work, and more investment, for less profit and less impressions in the end that you used to have.

 

More importantly, this makes eBay less competitive against Amazon/other marketplaces, as eBay isn't able to match their shipping speed/return options, and is often times not even a cheaper price anymore. 

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