eBay Policy Change/Seller Protection Change when Buyer uses a Freight Forwarder?

[mangorunner]

I have always been of the understanding that the Buyer loses protection under the eBay Money Back Guarantee when using a Freight Forwarding service.  If the Seller ships the item and tracking shows it was delivered to the address of record in the original purchase, and the address is that of a Freight Forwarding service, then the eBay Money Back Guarantee does not apply.  The policy explicitly says that "Items shipped to another address after original delivery" are not covered.  (Following the link provided, scroll down to the section labeled "Not Covered".)

However, in another forum, there was a recent post that indicated otherwise - or at least a new caveat/nuance of which Sellers should take notice.  Regarding their Buyer's return request, the Seller (poster) relayed the following details.  (I've paraphrased):

Called eBay and eBay said the whole freight forwarding thing recently got changed.  They (eBay) can now only reject a return request if the Buyer actually *says* they used a forwarder in an eBay message.  Apparently, the fact that the shipping address belongs to a freight forwarder is no longer enough.  The eBay Rep said that buyers are claiming that they *work* at the freight-fowarding company - things like that  - in order that they may still be able to make returns and file INADs/SNADs.  The eBay Rep said that only way to actually prove that they used a freight forwarder is with a Buyer message acknowledging that.

I had an obvious freight-forwarder sale the other day.  I took photos of the item, contents as packed before the box was sealed, the box, and the shipping label and sent them to the Buyer with the message "I see you are using a Freight Forwarding service.  Here are photos of the item as it is being shipped so that you have them for your records."  I received no reply from the Buyer.

Has anyone heard about this change?  Any recent experience in this area?  Is there truth to this policy change?  Are you now confirming the use of a FF with your Buyer via eBay message prior to shipping?

[pink.fish.rule]

Riiiiiight. Someone with a registered address In Bangabingbon Arabia "works at the freight forwarder". uhuh.

Is there any low ebay won't stoop to to shaft the seller?

[thehonorabletrader]

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@mangorunner wrote:

I have always been of the understanding that the Buyer loses protection under the eBay Money Back Guarantee when using a Freight Forwarding service.  If the Seller ships the item and tracking shows it was delivered to the address of record in the original purchase, and the address is that of a Freight Forwarding service, then the eBay Money Back Guarantee does not apply.  The policy explicitly says that "Items shipped to another address after original delivery" are not covered.  (Following the link provided, scroll down to the section labeled "Not Covered".)

However, in another forum, there was a recent post that indicated otherwise - or at least a new caveat/nuance of which Sellers should take notice.  Regarding their Buyer's return request, the Seller (poster) relayed the following details.  (I've paraphrased):

Called eBay and eBay said the whole freight forwarding thing recently got changed.  They (eBay) can now only reject a return request if the Buyer actually *says* they used a forwarder in an eBay message.  Apparently, the fact that the shipping address belongs to a freight forwarder is no longer enough.  The eBay Rep said that buyers are claiming that they *work* at the freight-fowarding company - things like that  - in order that they may still be able to make returns and file INADs/SNADs.  The eBay Rep said that only way to actually prove that they used a freight forwarder is with a Buyer message acknowledging that.

I had an obvious freight-forwarder sale the other day.  I took photos of the item, contents as packed before the box was sealed, the box, and the shipping label and sent them to the Buyer with the message "I see you are using a Freight Forwarding service.  Here are photos of the item as it is being shipped so that you have them for your records."  I received no reply from the Buyer.

Has anyone heard about this change?  Any recent experience in this area?  Is there truth to this policy change?  Are you now confirming the use of a FF with your Buyer via eBay message prior to shipping?

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This is actually an old policy. I would re-contact again and ask for different agent. This is an example of where policy is not consistent between different agents. 

I would never ship to a freight forwarder...EVER. The reason for this is because eBay allows you to cancel for "Address Issue" since it's not covered and on top of that the buyer can still file a payment dispute outside of eBay or PayPal and possibly get a refund. I've experienced this scam before and I won't ever ship to a freight forwarder. 

[mangorunner]

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@thehonorabletrader wrote:

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This is actually an old policy. I would re-contact again and ask for different agent. This is an example of where policy is not consistent between different agents. 

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Which is an old policy?  A requirement for a Buyer to acknowledge the use of a freight forwarder?  Was that an actual eBay policy at one time?

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@thehonorabletrader wrote:

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I would never ship to a freight forwarder...EVER. The reason for this is because eBay allows you to cancel for "Address Issue" since it's not covered and on top of that the buyer can still file a payment dispute outside of eBay or PayPal and possibly get a refund. I've experienced this scam before and I won't ever ship to a freight forwarder. 

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I've always thought that a purchase by a Buyer using a freight forwarder was a cause for celebration, not reason a reason to cancel a sale.  Firstly, you have a sale.  A lot of my long-tail items take awhile to sell and so I'm always happy for a sale.  And as a seller, all I have to do is what I always do: ship the item on time to the address provided.  Once tracking shows that it has been delivered, my obligation is complete (or so I thought, until I read the story in my first post, above).  And didn't you say that the Seller should have called eBay back and spoken to another Customer Service representative? 

I've shipped many, many items to freight forwarders and never had a problem.  And if I learn that the story above has bad/wrong information, that it does not have to be documented in an eBay message, then I will continue to do a happy dance whenever I get such a sale.  It's a seller holiday.  I don't see the scam to which you refer.

[mam98031]

Could we get some clarification on this as it is an extremely important issue.  Thank you in advance.

@Anonymous 

tyler@ebay 

brian@ebay 

[mam98031]

I think that it really depends on what you sell.  If I were a seller of electronics, I wouldn't want to ship to a Freight Forwarder.  

I've shipped to forwarders on a regular basis for years.  With very few problems at all.

Besides, there is no block available to a seller that can prevent an international buyer with a US ship to address from purchasing.  So cancelling a sale that has a freight forwarder involved would be far more damaging to the health of a selling account.  Well unless the seller wasn't telling the truth when filing the cancellation.

@thehonorabletrader 

[pjcdn2005]

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@thehonorabletrader wrote:

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I would never ship to a freight forwarder...EVER. The reason for this is because eBay allows you to cancel for "Address Issue" since it's not covered and on top of that the buyer can still file a payment dispute outside of eBay or PayPal and possibly get a refund. I've experienced this scam before and I won't ever ship to a freight forwarder. 

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eBay may not give you any grief when you cancel a transaction to a freight forwarder but imo you shouldn't be able to cancel it as a problem with an address. The address is in the US, you ship to the US...they are not asking you to ship to another country. 

What 'scam' are you referring to? Like others, I've shipped to freight forwarders without any problems.

[mam98031]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

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@thehonorabletrader wrote:

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I would never ship to a freight forwarder...EVER. The reason for this is because eBay allows you to cancel for "Address Issue" since it's not covered and on top of that the buyer can still file a payment dispute outside of eBay or PayPal and possibly get a refund. I've experienced this scam before and I won't ever ship to a freight forwarder. 

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eBay may not give you any grief when you cancel a transaction to a freight forwarder but imo you shouldn't be able to cancel it as a problem with an address. The address is in the US, you ship to the US...they are not asking you to ship to another country. 

What 'scam' are you referring to? Like others, I've shipped to freight forwarders without any problems.

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The only way that may happen is if the seller improperly files the Cancellation as having something wrong with the address.  But that isn't true, there isn't anything wrong with the address, it is the seller that just doesn't want to ship to that address.  There is a big difference.  It would be an incorrect use of the Cancellation process to file using the reason as a problem with the address, because NONE exists.  It was simply the seller's personal preference.

The buyer is completely operating within the rules of Ebay.  It would be the seller that isn't.

I completely agree with you.  Your assessment is very good.  I would just add that Ebay will give the seller grief if they catch that they improperly used the Cancellation process.  But they do have to catch it.

[this*old*attic]

I ship to them fairly often, never a problem.

With sales so low, why would you do ANYTHING that would frustrate or disappoint buyers?!?!?!?!

[thehonorabletrader]

The eBay Money Back Guarantee does not cover buyers using re-shippers. I sold an iPhone for $700 a few years back and shipped it to the US address. Buyer claimed Item Not Received. eBay backed me up. Buyer then filed a PP dispute. PayPal ruled in Buyers favor and refunded the buyer and I lost the money. I had to file a claim with the BBB before paypal finally decided to cover me (after hours on the phone). 

Since then, every time I see a freight forwarder, I contact eBay CS. They authorize me to cancel for Address Issue and they put a not in my account. This is how I have been able to do it. And that is why I do it. I always ask for permission from eBay's resolution center. They want to protect sellers every chance they get because they don't often get chances to protect sellers, so they will typically do this for me. 

[thehonorabletrader]

However, that was a few years ago and PayPal has expanded some of it's seller protections and I am sure eBay will to when they take over. I'll have to follow up on PayPal with this and if I am protected against Chargebacks I will be happy to ship. If not I will either get permission to cancel for Address Issue or I will cancel for out of stock and block the buyer and take the defects. They are not a huge part of my business but I don't sell very many items, so one big loss is huge for me. 

[mam98031]

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@thehonorabletrader wrote:

The eBay Money Back Guarantee does not cover buyers using re-shippers. I sold an iPhone for $700 a few years back and shipped it to the US address. Buyer claimed Item Not Received. eBay backed me up. Buyer then filed a PP dispute. PayPal ruled in Buyers favor and refunded the buyer and I lost the money. I had to file a claim with the BBB before paypal finally decided to cover me (after hours on the phone). 

Since then, every time I see a freight forwarder, I contact eBay CS. They authorize me to cancel for Address Issue and they put a not in my account. This is how I have been able to do it. And that is why I do it. I always ask for permission from eBay's resolution center. They want to protect sellers every chance they get because they don't often get chances to protect sellers, so they will typically do this for me. 

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Even PP's rule is you must ship to the address on the PP payment notification.  So if you had tracking that showed delivered, PP made a mistake in ruling for the buyer.

That shouldn't happen.  Calling the call center and getting those transactions cancelled.  There is no breach of any rule by the buyer nor did the buyer do anything wrong.  

How do you "ask for permission from eBay's resolution center" or do you just mean what you previously said that you call the call center and get them to take care of the transaction?

The CSRs that you have gotten to do this for you are wrong.  I get it that it works out for you, but it is still wrong as the buyer did nothing wrong.

[Anonymous]

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@mangorunner wrote:

I have always been of the understanding that the Buyer loses protection under the eBay Money Back Guarantee when using a Freight Forwarding service.  If the Seller ships the item and tracking shows it was delivered to the address of record in the original purchase, and the address is that of a Freight Forwarding service, then the eBay Money Back Guarantee does not apply.  The policy explicitly says that "Items shipped to another address after original delivery" are not covered.  (Following the link provided, scroll down to the section labeled "Not Covered".)

However, in another forum, there was a recent post that indicated otherwise - or at least a new caveat/nuance of which Sellers should take notice.  Regarding their Buyer's return request, the Seller (poster) relayed the following details.  (I've paraphrased):

Called eBay and eBay said the whole freight forwarding thing recently got changed.  They (eBay) can now only reject a return request if the Buyer actually *says* they used a forwarder in an eBay message.  Apparently, the fact that the shipping address belongs to a freight forwarder is no longer enough.  The eBay Rep said that buyers are claiming that they *work* at the freight-fowarding company - things like that  - in order that they may still be able to make returns and file INADs/SNADs.  The eBay Rep said that only way to actually prove that they used a freight forwarder is with a Buyer message acknowledging that.

I had an obvious freight-forwarder sale the other day.  I took photos of the item, contents as packed before the box was sealed, the box, and the shipping label and sent them to the Buyer with the message "I see you are using a Freight Forwarding service.  Here are photos of the item as it is being shipped so that you have them for your records."  I received no reply from the Buyer.

Has anyone heard about this change?  Any recent experience in this area?  Is there truth to this policy change?  Are you now confirming the use of a FF with your Buyer via eBay message prior to shipping?

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Hi @mangorunner, when the delivery address is that of a forwarding service this is not by itself enough evidence to say the item was forwarded - forwarding companies have employees, and those employees may have purchases shipped to the office. I personally have all of my orders shipped to my office, as do many of my colleagues and friends. When there is proof that a buyer has had an item forwarded beyond the original delivery address, they would no longer be covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee. To withhold protection from a buyer, we do require evidence beyond the delivery address being that of a forwarding company.

I know this may seem strange, but years ago I personally spoke with the owner of one of these companies who had a case closed against him for a high value item because the assumption was made that the item was forwarded (don't worry, we corrected our mistake for this buyer). Additionally, many forwarding services will inspect and retain the item for their customers if this option is selected. I've worked with many of these companies personally when I worked in our Money Back Guarantee department. These are just a couple of examples of why we do not use the address by itself as evidence of an item being forwarded.

That being said, we can see if the address shipped to is a forwarding address and will consider this in conjunction with other details when reviewing the case to determine if the transaction qualifies for protection. You are welcome to contact Customer Service to review the specific details of your transaction if you have any concerns.

[mam98031]

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@thehonorabletrader wrote:

However, that was a few years ago and PayPal has expanded some of it's seller protections and I am sure eBay will to when they take over. I'll have to follow up on PayPal with this and if I am protected against Chargebacks I will be happy to ship. If not I will either get permission to cancel for Address Issue or I will cancel for out of stock and block the buyer and take the defects. They are not a huge part of my business but I don't sell very many items, so one big loss is huge for me. 

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"...I am sure eBay will to when they take over"  When who takes over what?

[pjcdn2005]

You should not have lost an item not received PP case if there was delivery confirmation to the (reshipper. Or  did they open a not as described case?   In that situation PP wouldn't have the same seller protection as ebay does. But again..buyers in the US could just as easily open a nad case.

With that being said....I admit that I would be wary of selling cell phones on ebay in general and especially if I thought the phone was going to certain parts of the world.