The eBay service metrics extortion scheme = Mutual self destruction. Long post 🙄

[gwzcomps]

When talking with a friend of mine today he made some good points about the service metrics threat eBay holds over our heads as sellers.  This is out of our control so there is no point in fighting it or getting mad about it.  This system is poorly thought out (go figure) and only stands to disincentivize good sellers.  There is no real incentive for bad sellers to get better, and it punishes good sellers if they fall under the thresholds.  Beyond my other thread about listing quality this system gives the incentive to cut corners to improve productivity.

My thought process may apply more to electronics than anything else, but this is how I see it.  I have no incentive to thoroughly clean my items when I can just say the item needs cleaning in the description and wing it.  Cutting corners on testing parts of an item people may not use saves time.  Not even testing items that generally have a low failure rate saves time.

The end goal is if we are going to get punished for all SNAD returns with no discretion then might as well focus on other issues.  The math is in our favor to cut corners if it boosts the amount of inventory we can push out.  If the 5% penalty is going to cost an additional $500 per $10000 sold plus return costs you just have to cut enough corners to cover and exceed those costs.  That is how you win the service metrics game.

A good example of this is how I have started listing my parts repair laptops.  Did no testing, did no cleaning, poor quality photos, minimal description.  Listed 12 laptops in an hour rather than the several hours they normally would have taken.  If they manage to sell my time investment is lower with probably a similar or slightly higher risk of returns that count against me no matter what.

So yes to the eBay staff, returns are a cost of business.  However lower quality sellers is the cost of screwing your sellers over.

[luckythewinner]

This system is poorly thought out (go figure) and only stands to disincentivize good sellers

eBay does not care *why* a seller is attracting returns and SNAD cases, eBay only cares *that* a seller is attracting them. 

If a good seller cannot figure out why he is attracting returns and SNAD cases and correct it, I think eBay would disagree with the criteria that defines a "good seller". 

However lower quality sellers is the cost of screwing your sellers over.

If your new listing strategy results in roughly the same return rate, why would you consider yourself a "lower quality seller" ? 

[gwzcomps]

There is no way of correcting buyer stupidity. I have years of experience trying. Out of my own returns only small percentage of the 2% return rate are legit returns.

Garbage photos and description don't make for a good seller IMO.

[luckythewinner]

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There is no way of correcting buyer stupidity. I have years of experience trying. Out of my own returns only small percentage of the 2% return rate are legit returns.

I didn't say the seller was supposed to correct buyer stupidity. I said that a seller can figure out why he is attracting returns and SNAD cases and correct it. 

An example might be to part those laptops out, and sell working parts instead of non-working laptops. Another might be to simply stop selling the items that are attracting returns and SNAD cases.

Garbage photos and description don't make for a good seller IMO.

Some might suggest that creating "garbage" listings is a choice made by the seller, not an obligation mandated by eBay. 

[my-cottage-books-and-antiques]

I only glanced at your listings, but it looks like you have a 30 day buyer pays return shipping policy. You say your total return rate is about 2%, with most of those undeserved INADs. It sounds to me like you can handle the 2% return rate financially. The real issue is that you can end up penalized by ebay Seller Metrics, which can increase the financial burden of those returns. As you admit, there's no reason to expect the Seller Metrics evaluation program to change in the near future (although, with a new CEO, it might change at some point) So, best to deal with the reality that it is here and not going away anytime soon.

Seller metrics looks at INRs (doesn't sound like they've been much of a problem for you) and INADs. It does NOT count remorse returns against you.

Your return policy provides some buyers with the incentive to choose an INAD reason in order to get the free return shipping. That is unfair and unfortunate, but it's also reality.

Rather than experiment with lousy photos and descriptions, I'd suggest a different experiment: changing your return policy to 30 day free returns. That reduces the incentive for buyers to choose an INAD reason. Most sellers I know who made that change have seen no or very little increase in total returns.

In addition, I would add a blurb to your description and more importantly to your packing slip (or as a separate package insert if you don't use a packing slip). Something like: " Your satisfaction is important to us. We know finding the right part can be tricky, and getting it to work can be even trickier. If you are having a problem with this, feel free to contact me through ebay messages and I'll try to help you . If your item does not turn out to be what you need, you can simply choose "buyer changed mind" and return the item within 30 days using the free ebay-provided return shipping label."

One other thing that might reduce the cost of returns...some of your items are low dollar items, is it really worth the cost to get the item back? You can set your Return Policy to issue a refund without a return for items under a certain price point (this is not shown to the buyers).

These are obviously just my unsolicited suggestions, and they might not work for you, just wanted to throw them out there. Feel free to throw them away LOL

[upgradedendmills]

Would it be worthwhile to have a separate ID for your parts/non working items and not have those items affect your working laptop sales? Everything is a tradeoff, but this might help.

     In my main category I gave up selling anything that is not in 100% good working order years ago. No matter how low of a price you offer on non working, incomplete, or damaged items, you are going to attract a customer base that expects more than what they are paying for. I will sell these items to long term trusted buyers if they request a specific tool for a one time job where cost is the main concern with the understanding that they are "as is". Otherwise they go on Craigslist or  are considered scrap until I find the time to refurbish them.

     Have you ever considered starting a repair service with your built in parts supply? 

[gwzcomps]

My 2% rate is the SNAD rate on my service metrics I am projecting with my recent returns. Every month my rate goes up and my peer rate goes down at no fault of my own IMO. INRs are no issue since I ship within my handling period with tracking.

Free returns will mean people use me as a source of parts to diagnose their equipment. I have seen on several occasions on forums people telling others to buy parts on eBay and how to return them if they were wrong about their issue. Also YouTube reviewers have admitted on occasion of abusing eBay and Amazon return policies to get products for their videos. Offering returns hasn't increased or decreased my return rates particularly. I was shocked that I had one honest person admit to a remorse return and follow through with it.

Honestly making them send the item back is better I realized too late unfortunately. If I just refund them I have no way to know what happened. If I force them to send the item back I can diagnose and make the appropriate report against them. I lose more money on the higher price items than the low ones regardless. The more expensive items cost more to ship...

It is all good advice. I just have no clue what I will do with it. I will probably have to work on some sort of a packing slip with a note. I may break down and do free returns, but I doubt it. The only reason I am doing the 30 day returns is for the applicable deductions.

[gwzcomps]

I might be giving the wrong impression in my returns. Most of my returns are on the working items I sell. I am just using parts repair listings as a drastic example of me cutting corners. My other listings a buyer has no way to tell if I tested the optical drive or not. They have no way to know if I tested 100% of the ports on a networking switch. Did I actually verify the functionality of the video card I am selling?

On my working stuff if the buyer can't figure out how to use it they assume I sold them junk. Examples being people trying to put a 3rd gen processor in a 2nd gen dell just because "the chipset should support it". The people that buy a Core 2 Quad and assume it will work in their motherboard just because it has the same socket. The person that is trying to use an incompatible memory configuration and blames me for their system not booting. The person that buys a laptop with no OS explained multiple different ways then say the laptop doesn't work, because they are being cheap and trying to save money. Those are the people that are killing my business.

[this*old*attic]

I know zip about computers, but I have owned more than one small business over the past 30 years.

Some problems legitimately cannot be solved - costs, inventory, competition, changing tastes, whatever.

When that happens, and you’ve played with all of the various moving parts to no avail, it might be time to close.

[sabsh9516]

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@gwzcomps wrote:

When talking with a friend of mine today he made some good points about the service metrics threat eBay holds over our heads as sellers.  This is out of our control so there is no point in fighting it or getting mad about it.  This system is poorly thought out (go figure) and only stands to disincentivize good sellers.  There is no real incentive for bad sellers to get better, and it punishes good sellers if they fall under the thresholds.  Beyond my other thread about listing quality this system gives the incentive to cut corners to improve productivity.

My thought process may apply more to electronics than anything else, but this is how I see it.  I have no incentive to thoroughly clean my items when I can just say the item needs cleaning in the description and wing it.  Cutting corners on testing parts of an item people may not use saves time.  Not even testing items that generally have a low failure rate saves time.

The end goal is if we are going to get punished for all SNAD returns with no discretion then might as well focus on other issues.  The math is in our favor to cut corners if it boosts the amount of inventory we can push out.  If the 5% penalty is going to cost an additional $500 per $10000 sold plus return costs you just have to cut enough corners to cover and exceed those costs.  That is how you win the service metrics game.

A good example of this is how I have started listing my parts repair laptops.  Did no testing, did no cleaning, poor quality photos, minimal description.  Listed 12 laptops in an hour rather than the several hours they normally would have taken.  If they manage to sell my time investment is lower with probably a similar or slightly higher risk of returns that count against me no matter what.

So yes to the eBay staff, returns are a cost of business.  However lower quality sellers is the cost of screwing your sellers over.

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So..... You're becoming a bad seller on purpose? Just when I thought I had heard it all...

[cynthealee2]

ROFL he's not becoming a BAD seller... just a LAZY seller.

It doesn't matter currently if he tells them what does or does not work on the thing...

It doesn't matter currently if he tells them what it does and does not need system wise to work...

Cause he's got dingy buyers that don't read or understand what they are reading and using false reasons to return perfectly fine computers cause THEY (the buyer) can't make it work the way THEY want it to.

I mean I know NADA about computers but I at least OWN the not knowing... he's got buyers that THINK they know what they are doing, and then when they figure out that they (the buyer) was wrong and they don't know what they are doing, instead of owning it and filing the return correctly (buyer remorse reasons), they are lying and claiming INAD and messing up the OP's metrics.

OP would take em back either way... that's not the issue... OP doesn't want to PAY for the buyers dingy-ness in return shipping costs OR higher INAD metrics.

IF the OP switched to Free returns I think his numbers would only go higher cause the buyers still aren't going to own their own stupidity, and free returns would just bring more of them to his listings.   But that's just my 2 cents.

[prettywoman-2012]

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@luckythewinner wrote:

This system is poorly thought out (go figure) and only stands to disincentivize good sellers

eBay does not care *why* a seller is attracting returns and SNAD cases, eBay only cares *that* a seller is attracting them. 

If a good seller cannot figure out why he is attracting returns and SNAD cases and correct it, I think eBay would disagree with the criteria that defines a "good seller". 

Looks like, then one can only hope that eBay and you do not think alike...right?

PW🐿

[zamo-zuan]

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@luckythewinner wrote:

This system is poorly thought out (go figure) and only stands to disincentivize good sellers

eBay does not care *why* a seller is attracting returns and SNAD cases, eBay only cares *that* a seller is attracting them. 

If a good seller cannot figure out why he is attracting returns and SNAD cases and correct it, I think eBay would disagree with the criteria that defines a "good seller". 

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What if the reason the seller is attracting them is because they actually have stellar statistics in their own category, but eBay hasn't separated your peers by category, so you're "peers" are seller of completely different items which have a lower return rate than the item you're selling?

The entire Motors site (Motors is a site and not a category, even on eBay's own description of it) is considered 1 big category. It's impossible for certain product lines to have seller metrics that aren't high/very high. It's not in the hands of the sellers, it's due to eBay's unfair and unjust practices.

It's unquestionably unfair that eBay will compare high return rate categories to low return rate categories and claim they're "peers". The ball is in their court, and not the sellers.

I know some have questioned if the Seller Metrics system was a "scam" or "unethical". I wouldn't say it is for all categories. Some sellers are able to fight it. But for some, such as the Motors categories, it absolutely is. Certain Motors product lines have a 2% defect rate straight from the manufacturer, yet the seller metrics claim a 0.8% defect rate is "high" and above 1.0% is "very high"....

If a seller has a better return rate than others in their own category, doesn't it take quite a bit of nerve to say that "eBay disagrees that they're a good seller"? EBay hasn't even taken the time to check if they're a good sellers or not if they haven't compared to their peers! The design is flawed and sloppy.

[luckythewinner]

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@prettywoman-2012 wrote:

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@luckythewinner wrote:

This system is poorly thought out (go figure) and only stands to disincentivize good sellers

eBay does not care *why* a seller is attracting returns and SNAD cases, eBay only cares *that* a seller is attracting them. 

If a good seller cannot figure out why he is attracting returns and SNAD cases and correct it, I think eBay would disagree with the criteria that defines a "good seller". 

Looks like, then one can only hope that eBay and you do not think alike...right?

If eBay punishes sellers for their volume of returns and SNADs, and eBay makes no effort to determine whether the buyer's claim is valid, then I can only conclude that eBay is punishing a seller for attracting disputes and not just for attracting valid disputes. 

This is not about what I "think", it is about what I observe and conclude about eBay's behavior and eBay's policies.