01-02-2023 08:01 AM - edited 01-02-2023 08:02 AM
I've been watching numerous platforms change their page layouts, program formats, functionality, page to page links, etc for quite a few years and I believe modern programming reached its zenith a few years back and is now on a continuing downward spiral. The result is lost efficiency in completing simple tasks, reviewing data and information as part of the day-to-day internet entrepreneur business. Many tasks have doubled the amount of time it takes to complete them. Too many platforms have gone to a pretty and fancy look but have lost simple efficiency functionality. Does eBay fall into this category? Yes, as many have posted here BUT they are certainly not the only company to fall into that trap.
I Buy a lot of my inventory online, so this phenomenon negatively affects Buyers too and not just Sellers. So instead of being able to peruse through a 500 lot online auction and create a Watch list in 20 minutes it now takes close to twice that. That is happening to a lot of Buyers so the net result is that somebody's auction is not being reviewed because the time to do that was spent on a different auction.
The other issue is managing each unique platform. eBay makes it easy for a Buyer to set up their funding source one time yet purchase from millions of individual Sellers.
One auction platform I work with sponsors auction houses in all 50 states so it is similar to eBay in that I enter my funding source info one time and it is used on any auction I bid on.
As companies break off from these type venues and create their own sites or use other and newer programming formats then EACH site requires a discrete Username, Password and funding source. The newer programs also require more pointing, clicking and scrolling. So, if I have to update or change my preferred funding source I would do it once on eBay or that other platform ... BUT for the individual auction firms it means for each and everyone.
Then on top of all of that one has to learn the new formats because while they are similar they are not all the same.
It is easy to see how we got here but it is hard to imagine what it will be like in the next 5 - 10 - 20 years ... but I just don't see it migrating back to a more efficient use of time through programming.
01-02-2023 04:08 PM
First off as a software engineer w/ web development as well the programmers don't make the decisions, they haven't made decisions in 20+ years. It's marketing and others that "White Board" the vision(s) and forward average users of webs don't understand how technology marches. If you want really blame something for changes in UI's and mechanisms of productivity decline it's the Smart Phone that is more responsible than any other mechanisms. Second to that would be trying get places to become standardized in handicapped access as a WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE ARE HANDICAPPED and for AGES the Internet has been a nightmare for them.
In reality you're blaming eBay upper management for what programmers are told to implement and yeah, those folks can get things wrong but making assumptions as to WHY things change are not simply "Try make it pretty." There are different "Software stacks" that come into play as technology moves and they can be wide varied from using far far less computing resources to being much easier to manage from a forward projection view of overall engineering. Often staying with what's old results in large expenses which would then be passed on as fee's to sellers.
In as far as Live Auction software its a vertical market application and as such the folks involved in design/creation tend "Do their own thing" .vs. any standardizations towards platforms being compatible. Some of that stuff can cost arm and leg. I remember some years back a fella I knew who raced Pigeons and the software used by the club to do that cost a WHOPPING $5500 annually... It's vertical market.
eBay is proprietary using hosts of other software stacks within the platform, some commercial, some open source.
There is a BIG DIFFERENCE in one having a webstore vs enterprise level computing that is eBay. Here we have connection servers, literally server farms with stacks and stacks of servers that do NOTHING but handle the connection. There are authentication servers and that's all the do. Every single time you or anyone else hits anything eBay, connection, authentication of EVERY SINGLE REQUEST. The internet is "Stateless" meaning that the STATE of you're access to ANY website is unknown unlike say Windows or you're phone which know when you've shut it off. Enterprise level web's are a completely different beast than pretty much anything else in the realms of computing and software engineering. If you're webstore sitting at $60 a year web with whatever the commerce application had 5,000 people hit it at once it come to a grinding halt. If you care pay $150/200+ a month can do that 5000 asynchronous connections.
One of the reasons webs have these fancier interfaces is something called Asynchronous Javascript. Javascript is a computer language built into the web browser. It allows for many things but one of them is being able to make changes within a web page without having to reload the entire page and thus all the assets and subsequent computer load accordingly. To put a paradigm to it, if you get a dirt spot on the hood of you're car would you rather expend all the energy washing you're entire car again by hand or just clean the dirt spot? Same same... Why reload the entire page calling on all those assets when can just do this little piece on demand. Further, having it broken down that way allows for better maintaining the code as well as making changes as needed to it towards future.
Now all that said and done very few marketers understand software engineering, very few software engineers understand marketing. Then atop all this there is upper management who wants results and these sides tend not get along all too well at times.
Marketing is far far far more complex than software engineering... We all here would like to say, "Oh, I understand marketing...." Trust me... No, 99.9% of us do not. Myself, I was taught it by three people one of which is a Politician, the other a former CMO at Amazon and the last a long since gone CMO when the word Yahoo actually meant more than the word Google.
One fella said his indi strorefront does good in Google Indexing. That's a relative as most folks think they do but they don't pay for the services that actually can show them real results or compare them to other similar sites. Atop that, Google shopping traffic is COMPLETELY different than someone searching for information on Mayan ruins. You'll get more organic traffic and purchasing if you go out to webs, make deals, hit forums to advertise towards targeted customers than you'll ever get via a search engine for private commerce webs... I know, I've built many of them for people over the years and understand the marketing.
As an example, some many moons back we'd a commerce storefront I'd done and our daily postal bill of $4 or $5 each parcel, we'd $400-$800 postal bills 5 days a week. We literally had a clerk assigned to us as we'd walk in with postal sacks they allowed us to keep. People think their webstores are doing good but usually are not doing 1/10th of 1% of capability but the owners refuse to learn what's needed towards driving maximum capabilities. It's a good deal of work and education... CMO's dont get those TREmendous paychecks because they happen be lucky.
Anyways... Like I said, you're barking at the wrong people when it comes to the engineers.
01-02-2023 04:19 PM
@maxine*j wrote:Another issue is that people now use so many different devices -- desktops, laptops, netbooks, tablets, handhelds, smartphones -- and it's challenging to do "one size fits all" programming for them and the variety of operating systems that run them.
What might look and work great on, say, an iPhone with its iOS may be be so hot on a desktop with a Linux OS or on a laptop with a Windows OS. Often, the compromise is something that works well enough on all three, but isn't terrific on any of them.
Another challenge for programmers is that they're working with old (sometimes ancient in tech terms) coding and they must work around bugs from 8 years ago, or bad coding decisions made 14 years ago, et cetera, and be careful not bring entire rickety, tottering, barely-functioning sections with one small change.
And, yeah, of course programmers justify their existence by doing some what-the-heck and unnecessary programming: Repositioning icons, changing colors, shifting fonts, et cetera. Very few employers will hire someone to just sit at a desk, doing nothing, until there's an actual need for his skills six weeks or six months, or maybe even six years, down the road.
From a user point of view, the endless learning curve all this puts us on can be anything from mildly annoying to positively maddening, of course.
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No programmers don't justify their existence that way. No enterprise web wants to maintain two services one for mobile and one for not. To even attempt it is a disaster before it even begins. Today's web engineering paradigms are "Mobile first" engineering, thats not programmers... That's marketing.
Even if a private commerce web is not engineered these days to be "mobile first" they are missing a TON, absolute TONS of traffic. Fact.
01-02-2023 04:24 PM - edited 01-02-2023 04:27 PM
@retro_entertainment_collectibles wrote:First off as a software engineer w/ web development as well the programmers don't make the decisions... It's marketing and others...
And, according to my late husband who did some programming, half of those marketers and others have no clear idea what they really want and when they do, three-fourths of them can't explain it intelligibly. 😄
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01-02-2023 04:25 PM
@the_fancy_fox wrote:It’s why I use Sixbit for listing. All on one page and I can zoom through a listing. There are a few set ups but once there done listing is about as quick as it can be made to be. Great CS too.
I tired ebays new lister and ah, no thanks.
These places are an absolute funsie funs... Folks paying a premium monthly or annual fee often based upon how many listings they have. Too funny. Like it makes a huge difference to the application if one has 1000 or 50,000 listings. None whatsoever. Atop that the applications are far far far more simple than most any video game you might find on Steam and I'm not talking those of major publishers.
Here in my hand I have a 1998 copy of Tomb Raider III. Its so much more sophisticated in its engineering than any of these management platforms it's like grade school vs college. Most .99 cent mobile games are considerably more sophisticated.
I understand the places making them, I mean why not... There's a need to be sure and where there is need there is money to be made. It's not at all too different than the .50 cent DVD's at Walmart that they bang consumers $5 bucks for.
01-02-2023 04:31 PM
@maxine*j wrote:
@retro_entertainment_collectibles wrote:First off as a software engineer w/ web development as well the programmers don't make the decisions... It's marketing and others...
And, according to my late husband who did some programming, half of those marketers and others have no clear idea what they really want and when they do, three-fourths of them can't explain it lucidly. 😄
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Yepppp.... Marketers look at the programmers as geekstu's and the programmers look at the marketers thinking, "Well what they do is simple compared to knowing all this engineering stuff!"
Both are complex but the BIG difference is software engineering has constraints, that is to say the engineering lives in a box per se. Marketing on the other hand does not as every single person is an individual and unique. Good marketers know how to slice that up, categorize, target, read the statistical results and compare, make change and more.
Look at the landscape, Politicians often have amongst the best of marketers as they are actually selling people to other people and the rules of doing so are well... I need not tell you LOL. They've done such a fine job the nations is not "United we Stand" but instead "Divided we Falter."
01-02-2023 04:41 PM
It is not "dangerous" to buy from such, as has been suggested for decades if one uses a credit card.
It seems many people buy online with a debit card or a gift card. And coming soon, etransfers.
None of those allow the buyer much in the way of redress if the transaction goes pear-shaped.
They draw from bank accounts , like an electronic check, from dedicated cash, or depend on the accurate insertion of the intended seller's email address.
ETransfers have been widely available here in Canada for some time. My gardener for one prefers them. But they can go horribly wrong.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2019423299628
This is where Paypal was good for the buyer. They allowed claims. And if the PP account is backed by a credit card, there is also the chargeback possibility.
I continue to hope that the difficulties some sellers have with Managed Payments reflects a closer grip on security for both buyer and seller.
01-02-2023 06:23 PM
@retro_entertainment_collectibles wrote:
@the_fancy_fox wrote:It’s why I use Sixbit for listing. All on one page and I can zoom through a listing. There are a few set ups but once there done listing is about as quick as it can be made to be. Great CS too.
I tired ebays new lister and ah, no thanks.
These places are an absolute funsie funs... Folks paying a premium monthly or annual fee often based upon how many listings they have. Too funny. Like it makes a huge difference to the application if one has 1000 or 50,000 listings. None whatsoever. Atop that the applications are far far far more simple than most any video game you might find on Steam and I'm not talking those of major publishers.
Funsie fun? I rather pay for something that works well rather than deal with constant frustration and slowwwwwwww listing creation time. In one days worth of my time doing listings I more than cover the cost of an outside lister program just by how many more listings I can create using it vs using ebays lister.
When ebay used to use the team at Sixbit to create and maintain eBay’s lister, guess what! It worked! Ebay took it over and it went down the tubes.
Another bonus is that all the work I do is stored on my computer in a form that’s ready to list at anytime. An absolute good thing since ebay doesn’t store your work for more than a few months.
I have numerous templates all set up so I have to is duplicate the appropriate one, do the body of my listing and change up a few item specifics. Done.
As for your comment of management, I totally agree. So between management not understand and the programmers not understanding what they do vs how it works? I’ll stick with someone that does understand.
01-02-2023 07:53 PM
Yeah, funsie fun LOL.
I dont have a problem with listing here... But I am a programmer so this is easy peasy quick and breezy to me. Snap photo's w/ phone, hook the phone to the PC, copy all the files over. Bulk import into paint shop pro run a crop/resize script and type... I type about 100+ WPM.
I've not explored eBay's Application Programming Interface to consider creating a listing tool but I can tell you if the database is stored on you're local PC that even easier than using mySQL for the database in a pure online venue. There's applications in fact if you know the database fields will literally write all the code for you short of the code interfacing to eBay's "API." There's people that use such programs to write other programs sold right here on eBay. Stamp collector, coin collector, train collector, card collector, glass collector, collector collector that collectors use to catalog their collections, collect ably LOL! They're essentially just shell programs over a database that let the user create the database easily. Microsoft Access allowed for that and if one bought the license of the full runtime environment the "application" created could be sold separately without having to need any of MS Access's core libraries.
Absolutely there is need for external listing tools, there's re-pricers too... I create a re-pricer many moons ago that just drove people crazy on Amazon. It was in fact so effective Amazon refused to allow me resell it as they said it potentially could drive valuation at the site down VERY VERY fast and it was intelligent, you could literally program simply on what you wanted it to do in whole, categorized groups of product or per SKU. There was no upload required either, it dynamically change pricing just as you might by hand automating the web browser so price changes were instant. Oh my gosh we used to laugh and laugh as sellers try keep up with it and we could just walk away, fully autonomous. They allowed us to use it but nobody else LOL. I'd made a shipping tool too, you could buzz an order through it every 7 seconds, postal service printing, address correction, the works. Plan was sell it too however the USPS decided to say, "No because every person who would need used it would need USPS API keys. Even when I made a mechanism by which the "calls" to the USPS API would go through the web, just through our API Keys they still said no. Why? Because of Stamp.com and others... It spit everything out ya' need, categorize products, output a spreadsheet that you could use with other softwares towards expense etc. It had automated tracking built in, email the customer every update of their package all running on you're local PC.
Always a brides maid on this stuff I built.
If I were to make an eBay lister I'd probably be shooting at the $19.95 per year zone unlimited and be delighted at that.
01-02-2023 08:24 PM
@retro_entertainment_collectibles wrote:No programmers don't justify their existence that way. No enterprise web wants to maintain two services one for mobile and one for not. To even attempt it is a disaster before it even begins. Today's web engineering paradigms are "Mobile first" engineering, thats not programmers... That's marketing.
Even if a private commerce web is not engineered these days to be "mobile first" they are missing a TON, absolute TONS of traffic. Fact.
Correct. I took a web design certification course a few years back and the number one thing they stressed was "mobile first" design because statistically the majority of web browsing these days is done on mobile devices like phones and tablets. If your website doesn't work well on those browsers, you're hurting yourself badly.
01-02-2023 08:51 PM
<<I dont have a problem with listing here... But I am a programmer so this is easy peasy quick and breezy to me. Snap photo's w/ phone, hook the phone to the PC, copy all the files over. Bulk import into paint shop pro run a crop/resize script and type... I type about 100+ WPM.>>
I'm just a humble editor and this ^^ all is very easy for me - I'm struggling to understand the torment over this. It's not exactly rocket surgery.
01-02-2023 08:54 PM
@yuzuha wrote:
@retro_entertainment_collectibles wrote:No programmers don't justify their existence that way. No enterprise web wants to maintain two services one for mobile and one for not. To even attempt it is a disaster before it even begins. Today's web engineering paradigms are "Mobile first" engineering, thats not programmers... That's marketing.
Even if a private commerce web is not engineered these days to be "mobile first" they are missing a TON, absolute TONS of traffic. Fact.
Correct. I took a web design certification course a few years back and the number one thing they stressed was "mobile first" design because statistically the majority of web browsing these days is done on mobile devices like phones and tablets. If your website doesn't work well on those browsers, you're hurting yourself badly.
Yep, everything's gone mobile first. I'd hate see the statistics probably something along the lines of "One PC to 10,000 smartphones" and perhaps "Ten Tab's to 1500+ smartphones."
I'm a programmer I don't like smartphones LOL. It's like "Where's the real-estate?" Sure its there, 1080P but the surface area isn't there, imagine reading an 8 point font on a smartphone. Be good for Snails but rest of us be turn into permanent squint. Then theirs the changing the shape of folks eyeballs as the focal length is altered by staring at mobile devices too much which has now created a small encyclopedia of disorders including transient blindness!
But yeah, even here on eBay people using templating need make sure said templates are mobile first which means knowing at least something about Cascading Style Sheets which have taken on a life of their own in webs. Mobile has also further complicated handicapped folks usage of the web, the mobile first paradigm makes it that much more difficult. There are literally millions atop millions atop millions of handicapped folks that ever so many webs pay no attention to... Amazon does. Years back they made concerted efforts to be handicapped friendly, if I recall correctly they'd said something along the lines of one in twenty five people had some form of handicap impacting web accessibility but I might be off on the number, its been a long time.
I have no issues with the new user interface eBay has in place, of course I use a PC to list as doing so mobile is painful, it's like writing a wordpress blog on a phone. Just no. No nO NO no...
Of course all of this stuff is moving towards change, voice recognition, VR shopping and more. Sure much of it is a "No Wine Before It's Time" just like TV Sets. Funny story, I'd a LG 60" TV, my brother asked me model number right? He was working for Riot Entertainment back then, League of Legends one of their code leads. So he tells me slap together a CentOS Linux box, sends me the app. Connect the PC to the TV service port, run the app... Upon reboot my 60" LG TV became a Samsung that in the store was about $400 more pricey.
01-02-2023 09:26 PM - edited 01-02-2023 09:27 PM
Do you think this is all because of not having end user testing, seems to me that most companies now try to depend on developers more that business analysts. I have been a user of eBay for 20 years and never was invited to test anything. Users know what is more productive for the business side, not developers. eBay developers or whoever comes up with an idea and shove it down the throats of users until they like it by everyday use and say, we told you you'd like it.
We are the users and eBay should create a new board in the community called "User requirements" and look at solving those issues if they want to grow. not just creating "How to open a business"
01-02-2023 10:08 PM
@chapeau-noir wrote:<<I dont have a problem with listing here... But I am a programmer so this is easy peasy quick and breezy to me. Snap photo's w/ phone, hook the phone to the PC, copy all the files over. Bulk import into paint shop pro run a crop/resize script and type... I type about 100+ WPM.>>
I'm just a humble editor and this ^^ all is very easy for me - I'm struggling to understand the torment over this. It's not exactly rocket surgery.
To me what's way off is the templating abilities which IMHO should have "Tags." That is to say <Title>, <Description> etc. So when making a template you could use the tags to inject you're data.
I suspect at some point eBay will disallow HTML in descriptions. I'm actually surprised in this day and age they haven't. Uniformity in this type of an environment is really fairly paramount. Don't want prospect shoppers going to one seller who has a completely different output display than some others, want complete uniformity across the platform so as shoppers have that 110% uniform experience.
01-02-2023 11:18 PM
One fact that has stood for 20+ years now is that it is much cheaper to add hardware resources in the form of both physical and virtual memory and tell the staff "make it work" than to hire COMPETENT programming staff. Hence, most of the efficiency and transparency is lost due to the cumbersome subroutines clutter and conflicting redundancy that the "programmers" come up with just to get a result at all!
01-02-2023 11:31 PM
I have to go to my desktop to switch the order. If I insist on using the ipad, I need to delete ALL of the photos and then load them up in the exact order that I want.
@ms.rodriguez* , I only use my iPad to upload my photos because I find it easier and quicker than desktop.
Moving photos around is no problem, you just need to hold the photo down for a second or so, and then move it anywhere.