Paypal Allows Buyer to Keep Item and Gives Them Refund

[misamerica]

Long time seller, Top Rated, etc... buyer opens SNAD with Paypal, we contact him by email thru Ebay. 

Buyer calls us on phone- says he never received it. Tracking says delivered.

Paypal freezes the 50.00, spends 75 days "fighting the case for us" and then says the buyers bank sided with the buyer. Despite all documentation, the buyer saying 2 different things, and us requesting a return tracking number of item if it is indeed SNAD and being refunded. 

Ebay says "its not our fight". Dont sell anything you cant afford to give away for free here.

[reallynicestamps]

You sold a Thing.

Tracking shows it was delivered.

Buyer claims by phone that it is Not Received.

Buyer opens Not As Described dispute through Paypal.

Note -- both are possible. The buyer had only 30 days from the last estimated date for delivery to make an eBay Dispute for INR. Should we assume that date had passed.

Note-- if the Thing is received during a Dispute, both PP and eBay allow the disput to be changed.

Did PP require the buyer to return the Thing with confirmation of delivery?

The Thing has not been returned.

PP refunded the buyer.

and then says the buyers bank sided with the buyer.

Was this a Dispute?

The policy for that is 'return for refund' for NAD and 'proof of delivery' for INR.

Or was it a credit card chargeback?

Those are often weird. The policies of the card company will trump yours, eBay's, and Paypal's.

Do call PP and work on getting a 'courtesy refund' based on showing that the item was received and was not returned.

If no Dispute was opened on eBay, and the dispute deadline has passed, they really are not involved.

[tunicaslot]

From the discription it was a credit card chargeback and those are very hard to win no matter what proof you have althoug Paypal will often accept the loss themselves if you have docummented proof of delivery.

[everything-from-trinkets-to-treasures]

What you are describing is a credit card chargeback...and those are in the end decided by the credit card company....there is nothing PayPal can do but try to fight it but they do not get to make the decision...and they did fight it and even extended the time period out 75 days in which to do so.

And ebay is correct...they have nothing to do with it or the money. Credit card companies only go through PayPal but the chargeback is against you...not ebay and not paypal or being done by either.

There is a whole section on it, explaining it, etc on paypal, which you should have read as you use the site as your processor and need to know how everything works...and what policies are and how the effect you.

[missjen831]

Actually sellers have seller protection against 2 types of chargebacks—INR and unauthorized use and they don’t lose their money no matter what the buyers credit card decides. If this was an SNAD chargeback, then there is no seller protection and it’s not ebays issue either. It’s one of the risks we all assume as sellers who take PayPal.

[pb*bikes]

I keep seeing this "dont sell anything you cant afford to lose".  That is the saying of the stock-market, of crypto currencies and casinos.  None of us sellers are wantingly selling for that reason. I dont know if anyone knowingly signed up to gamble instead of selling their merch

[everything-from-trinkets-to-treasures]

Just protect yourself as best you can and understand buyers can return items for any reason now. So do not spend the money the second it is in your account..and be wary for very high end items as anything can now happen on a return and there is now a large risk there.

[misamerica]

This was posted for those newcomers who are still making decisions about selling options. Now that all the possibilities have been listed that could happen let me just reiterate  PayPal won’t courtesy credit despite leaning on them pretty hard ; as we pay them for service, snad creates a chargeback and should have required return documentation, which PayPal didn’t not receive yet they still took the money. Online documentation was provided of receipt to buyers address by usps and visible on eBay. Yes he waited a month to contact us.  

Read the above policies carefully before you list - Been here since blackthorne 7000 pos feedback top rated plus seller and we were still run over.

Our premium store went to starter level may 30th - not getting run over twice.

[couldabeenworse]

buyer opens SNAD with Paypal

It is not clear to me if the buyer ever actually opened a paypal claim or went directly to his bank.  But what the buyer aparently won is NOT a paypal SNAD claim, it was a bank/card chargeback.

If it was the buyer's bank that reversed the payment, paypal is correct in saying that it had no say in the matter.  PayPal as the merchant of record can supply information to fight the chargeback, but the decision is out of their hands.

requesting a return tracking number of item if it is indeed SNAD and being refunded

IF this ended up being a Not As Described chargeback, the bank will not hold the buyer responsible for paying for return shipping.  They are usually required to  make the item available for the merchant to make return arrangements.  Did paypal at any point ask you to pay for return shipping?

IF it was instead a Not Received chargeback, there is of course nothing to return, but you should be covered by PayPal's Seller Protection.  Did you meet the other requirements?

[misamerica]

He called his bank and PayPal opened a case as snad. He then called us and said he never received the item. We met all requirements. PayPal just said they would try to request a return of item by buyer. They then waited the 75 days then the bank and PayPal closed in buyers favor. 

Thats my point- a warning to those going forward, in the case of buyer chargeback using snad as the reason, it seems they get the item and the money.

We’ve been selling on eBay since the beginnings successfully and exhausted all attempts to resolve this with the buyer and PayPal. He said one thing to us that didn’t match what he told his bank. Then was allowed to keep the item and the money.

Pretty lame.