New improvement on the classic SNAD scams

[alcoforever]

I'm starting to see a pattern of scams that are a variant and great improvement on the traditional SNAD scam.   Here is one example:  https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/So-discouraged-This-is-ridiculous/m-p/31849650#M1744266

The new variant is to claim box arrived empty.   The old way was to claim SNAD and then return a box of rocks or return something to a different address in the seller's zip code.   Either way of the old method is clearly mail fraud and could cause the buyer to face legal consequences.

But with the empty box claim, the buyer is scot free as anybody could have emptied the box.   The seller may have even deliberately sent an empty box.   There is not a shred of proof the buyer is lying.

A further advantage of this new method is that it will work on items of any value.   If you are not really a scammer but just a petty thief, you can order a $10 item, claim empty, and get it for free, after your refund of course.

Fortunately, most buyers here are honest but those few that are not will make it hell for sellers.  Even those that are only slightly dishonest may not try this trick as they may want to purchase from that seller again and fear getting on that seller's BBL.

[katzrul15]

But with the empty box claim, the buyer is scot free as anybody could have emptied the box.   The seller may have even deliberately sent an empty box.   There is not a shred of proof the buyer is lying.

It is disheartening really - to see so many posts these days on Buyer scams.  It seems really frequent.  You would think you could prove your claim to e-Bay by the weight of the parcel.  But a light enough parcel fits right into this scenario, really easily.

Seller work really hard that do this for a living, as a side hustle or as a hobby.  Regardless, we own what we sell (well, maybe a recent poster was vague), but to work hard for what you have and to have to taken so easily - it defies all logic, at least for me.

My guess is that whatever this "wave" of scams are - this is going to get much worse before it could ever get better.  No idea how to *fix* this, but we need better controls, better parameters/checks and balances.  Selling here should never be just 1-sided.  (it is though)

[kkastelic3]

Just had this happen to us today.  Sent the item via Fed Ex with a signature required.  They sent a picture of a box with green tape and a bunch of plastic inside it.  I googled the address and it’s a Russian drop ship address in Delaware.  I gave this info to eBay but I have a feeling we are going to lose.  Opened a case with fed-ex too.  We’ll see what happens.

[discountsac]

I feel like this could all be fixed if we were allowed to leave negative feedback for buyers... How is this NOT Ebay policy by now? So frustrating! The whole reason I sell on Ebay and NOT Amazon is because I thought Ebay was supposed to back up its sellers. I not saying every time someone sold something I would take the time to read through all their feedback... but at least then there would be SOME repercussion, SOME way for us sellers to 'give notice' to each other.

Really makes my blood boil that people try and burn us sellers like this- Im not some large corporation that can afford to lose out on $200 items (my latest loss to a fraudster, it was a ceiling fan). I cant sleep at night thinking about how **bleep** it is to have this done to you- let alone actually doing it to someone else.

[vintagecraze50]

Ebay will continue to believe buyers over sellers in this matter. People here who cannot shoulder the risk of theft by compensating with high sales and profits need to NOT LIST expensive items on here. That is the ONLY solution to this ever emerging problem.

[vintagecraze50]

The only other way to try to deal with this is to message the buyer and tell them you will be doing a postal inspection and to save the packaging material. If the scammer is a casual scammer not a pro scammer they might think twice about this. Pro scammers should only have a certain number of times they can claim empty box, snad returns, habitual returns etc. Ebay does not give a parameter to seller on how many times these folks can scam. I certainly hope they are doing this but we do not know how much these people are getting away with this stuff. Bottom line is the sales figures.

[popblox]

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@discountsac wrote:

I feel like this could all be fixed if we were allowed to leave negative feedback for buyers... 

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I wonder if there's a way to leave positive feedback for a buyer that's "telling", but isn't necessarily considered as negative or neutral? Just something to think about. . .

[dbfolks166mt]

I will not sell to Russia or China and have them on my blocked countries list. The Delaware site is infamous for foreign drop shipments a lot of which are scamming efforts. I have had one of these with a buyer trying to sneak under the radar and canceled the sale noting  a problem with the buyers address. Buyer also had 0 feedback and an account that was 2 weeks old. It may have been legitimate but I preferred not to take the chance. 

[allthingssurplus]

We have had to stop listing items over $750 because the return policy will never support the Seller.  However I do have some Items that target one industry we do list which are high dollar.  Case in point is we have a Buyer that purchased a $400 video card.  It was shipped to a freight forwarder, without our knowing, and then forwarded to China.  This Buyer opens a return request stating they purchased the wrong item.  We agreed to the return stating ship it back and we will refund.  The Buyer then closed the return request and opened a payment dispute.  By his action of opening a request and closing it he removes all of eBay decision making out of the process.  After several email to the Buyer stating he lied to his credit card company about the dispute he sent me a UPS tracking number.  There has been no pickup scan for the past 11 days for this tracking number.  Called eBay CS got an honest guy and he said this is really a no win for the Seller.  The eBay system only allows for the Seller to upload a JPG file to respond to the credit card company.  Can't give proper response to this issue using the system.  Also the CS agent said the credit card companies will almost always agree with their cardholder.  I will lose the $400 and this card due to the eBay system.  eBay will say its all up to the Credit Card company.  That would be true if eBay gave us access to what CC company was handling this transaction, which they won't.  eBay has a responsibility to fight this if they are collecting fees from a sale like this and won't release information so the Seller can protect themselves.  So eBay will earn $48.00 in FVF + the 2.35% processing fee.  I will lose $800.  Now there is a real supportive proactive site, not.  

Really sad that eBay allows these things to happen.  Someone on this thread said even through the Seller provides evidence to the case that clearly shows the Sellers position is correct, eBay still allows the Buyer to win.  Its clear to me upper management of eBay has no clue how business works however they do know how the stock market works and that is all they care about.

[ittybitnot]

 Its clear to me upper management of eBay has no clue how business works

@allthingssurplus 

To the contrary, I think eBay knows EXACTLY how it works.  Thus that policy change of voiding the MBG for those that use freight forwarders that now treats it as a same a domestic sale.  In addition, even though eBay is well aware of the "phony return tracking" or "cheap trinket" scam that involves these transactions, frontline CS can only DENY the seller since "there is tracking that shows delivery" albeit FAKE from the start.   That apparently, was too much trouble for the scammers who have now moved on to the good old "empty box" claim instead where they are only required to submit a (FAKE) police report in order to their refund from the seller.  

In the case of bogus "payment disputes" they are back to the old tried and true  "it is the credit card company and nothing we can do."  There has been an increase in these used in lieu of eBay disputes since return of the product for a refund is not required. 

[allthingssurplus]

This is not our first day on the block.  We do know most of the freight forwarder locations.  Usually there is a number in the address which indicates what customer the forwarder has so they can redirect.  In the case I described.  It was a normal address in Portland OR.  I called once to the location and they said the person was not home.  I called again after the return tracking was received and the person stated it was a drop location.   We don't ship to forwarders, its almost never good.

[allthingssurplus]

I said how business works not the eBay system.  Management knows exactly how the system works and it is clearly to their advantage.  What I attempted to convey was their focus is on the stock market and stock price.  They don't really care how much damage they do to the site.  They are in for short term gain and have no regard for the long term pain of that action.  All I was trying to say

[dnasilver]

FedEx has a weight on the box. All carriers do since they are required by transportation laws. That is your proof the box had more than plastic.

[vintagecraze50]

SURE—“buyer, claimed empty box, item sent and packaged well”.

[vintagecraze50]

With PP the disputes with the CC company were a bit more transparent. I had one many years ago and submitted 6 pages of paperwork to present to the CC company. I actually won this case.