How to CYA From Buyer Using Reshipper

[holmaneva-2]

Greetings: I have had two buyers this week using Reshippers to get around the fact I don't sell internationally. One on another Ebay account of mine used Shipto and the lastest today on this account is using Stackry. Found this out doing Due Diligence Googling the addresses, they did not say. The advise given was to not worry because Ebay MBG does not cover items reshipped from PP address given. Good for Ebay.

But now my question is what about CYA w/ PP that states the following: "You must ship the item to the shipping address on the transaction details page in your PayPal account for the transaction. If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the transaction details page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery."

PP does not care if the seller knows this or not, there will be no seller protection. That means a seller can get money taken from PP because of SNAD, damage, etc. & PP will not care even though a third party was involved. A reshipper, whose business is to reopen packages & repack with space/cash saving efficiency. And not to mention, this "international" shipping is multiplying the Ebay scamming potential to a global scale.

Can I not cancel/refund this latest purchase using "problems w/ address" without a deficit & protection from neg review because they are international buyers using a front address of a reshipper?

[tiramisu41]

@holmaneva-2

Do you know if an item is shipped onward from the address of record provided to you by eBay/PayPal that the buyer loses his/her ability to be covered by eBay's Money Back Guarantee?  Here's a screen shot from eBay's Help Center detailing what's not covered by the eBay MBG:

   

Most of the time, the eBay side of things is where the action is (not PayPal).    As a seller, you are only responsible for shipping to the address of record (whether that be a home, office, mail dept or re-shipper).  If the item is then re-shipped, the buyer loses all rights to utilize eBay's Money Back Guarantee which is a good thing for you.

May I ask why you are so worried about selling to someone who uses a re-shipper?   Many non-US customers use one because the cost of shipping is so much cheaper.  Theoretically (though admittedly not cheaper which is why many seek out another alternative) eBay's GSP is a re-shipper/freight forwarding service. 

I have sold to many foreign customers who have used GSP or their own third party re-shipping service and have not had one issue arise.   Just curious why it's such a concern for you?

[hidy-hoo · Accepted solution]

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@holmaneva-2 wrote:

Greetings: I have had two buyers this week using Reshippers to get around the fact I don't sell internationally. One on another Ebay account of mine used Shipto and the lastest today on this account is using Stackry. Found this out doing Due Diligence Googling the addresses, they did not say. The advise given was to not worry because Ebay MBG does not cover items reshipped from PP address given. Good for Ebay.

But now my question is what about CYA w/ PP that states the following: "You must ship the item to the shipping address on the transaction details page in your PayPal account for the transaction. If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the transaction details page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery."

PP does not care if the seller knows this or not, there will be no seller protection. That means a seller can get money taken from PP because of SNAD, damage, etc. & PP will not care even though a third party was involved. A reshipper, whose business is to reopen packages & repack with space/cash saving efficiency. And not to mention, this "international" shipping is multiplying the Ebay scamming potential to a global scale.

Can I not cancel/refund this latest purchase using "problems w/ address" without a deficit & protection from neg review because they are international buyers using a front address of a reshipper?

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A reshipped shipment is not the same as a redirected shipment. A reshipped shipment is delivered to the address on the PayPal transaction details page and is then reshipped by the reshipping company with a new tracking number to a different address. Since the seller's tracking number will have a "Delivered" status to the address on the PayPal transaction details page, the seller will be covered by both PayPal and eBay seller protection.

A redirected shipment is different. A redirected shipment is a shipment which has been forwarded to a different address and therefore the seller will not have delivery confirmation to the address on the PayPal transaction details page. The seller's tracking number will show that the package was forwarded (or redirected) and delivered to a different address... it will not be covered by PayPal or eBay seller protection.

You must ship to the address on the PayPal transaction page if it is a US address.  Canceling using "problem with address" will earn you a big fat defect!

[kensgiftshop]

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@holmaneva-2

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When you ship to a reshipper, your job is done once it's delivered.

The reshipper doesn't redirect the package like Pay Pal is talking about.

What they are talking about is a package that get's redirected to another address, like if they have their mail forwarded to their new address, using the same tracking number.

The reshipper will repackage the item if needed, then they pay postage to ship it to their customer.

Once the reshipper ships the package, it will have a new tracking number.

If the buyer uses the reshippers address when they pay, you are covered once it reaches that address.

[holmaneva-2]

I have read that if the buyer loses the ebay claim, which they probably will given ebay policy, they then open a claim through PP which has no such reshipping protection for sellers in their policy. Then it is not so cut and dry as to who will win. Some have won their cases (mainly by pointing out descepencies in the buyer's story in communications, so basically they outed themselves) and some did lose. Also, if seller states they do not ship internationally, buyers who use reshipppers to purchase from them are in effect forcing them to do so and therefore making any problem arising more complicated by ignoring the seller's wishes. If possible I would block reshipping buyers proactively before they buy, but if they want, they can just select a reshipper with different address & change their name.

[holmaneva-2]

@hidy-hooThanks for differentiating the two terms! I have actually written it down to have at hand incase of any arising issues. Thanks also to all who responded.

[tiramisu41]

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@holmaneva-2 wrote:

I have read that if the buyer loses the ebay claim, which they probably will given ebay policy, they then open a claim through PP which has no such reshipping protection for sellers in their policy. Then it is not so cut and dry as to who will win. Some have won their cases (mainly by pointing out descepencies in the buyer's story in communications, so basically they outed themselves) and some did lose.

@holmaneva-2  - ANY buyer domestic or foreign can open a case in PayPal if they want their money back.  They even have up to 180 days to do so.  If a buyer used their credit card to purchase, they can also seek recourse via that route.  Many banks will allow a charge to be contested for considerably longer than PayPal's 180-day window.  Chargebacks are something that just comes with the territory if you're a retailer online or off and is not a problem exclusive to non-US buyers.

Other posters up-thread have noted PayPal's policies regarding no seller protection for "re-shipments" does not mean/refer to what you think.  PayPal's policies relate to when delivery of an item is re-directed .   "Re-direction" is not the same thing as "re-shipping." Apples and oranges, and misunderstanding that is causing you undue concern. 

Also, if seller states they do not ship internationally, buyers who use reshipppers to purchase from them are in effect forcing them to do so and therefore making any problem arising more complicated by ignoring the seller's wishes. If possible I would block reshipping buyers proactively before they buy, but if they want, they can just select a reshipper with different address & change their name.

No, if a buyer uses a re-shipping company, they are not forcing you to ship to them internationally.  The only thing you are required to do is ship to the US address that's been provided.  You ship to that address and your responsibility is fulfilled.  If the address is a re-shipper, the buyer loses all rights to utilize eBay's MBG coverage.   And yes, they can go to PayPal and file a claim there -- but as I explained above *every* buyer no matter where they live can do the same if they wish and they have considerably more time to do so over eBay timelines, to boot.

It's still unclear to me why you are so opposed to trading with non-US buyers, but you're right, you cannot pre-ordain where any buyer lives based on address of record alone. 

One thing that could possibly help you discriminate is to adjust your PayPal settings so that you will only accept payment from US PayPal Accounts. However, realize if you do so, you're backing yourself into a real corner.  Reason being, buyer has a US address.  eBay will expect you to ship to this address, but you can't ship if the item hasn't been paid for and the only reason the buyer can't pay is because you are refusing to allow them to do so.  You could end up with a defect, negative feedback, and a whole lot of headaches that were entirely avoidable by not setting up such blocks in the first place.

Your selling strategy of course is entirely up to you, but to be honest, I think you are being overly cautious about whether to sell to someone who uses a re-shipping service.  Maybe it would help to think about this...

Let's say you sold a widget to someone and shipped it to a US address which (you assumed) was their permanent/home address.  Perhaps they are a student, a business person, or foreign national.  You would have no idea who or what they were.  Your only responsibility is to ship the item to the address of record in the US that you received from eBay/PayPal.  End of story.

But the next day after receiving the package, the buyer packs the item in their suitcase and leaves the country.  Maybe the item is a gift for someone back home.  Maybe it's an item that can't be bought overseas.  Or maybe it's just something the buyer bought for his/her use or as an addition to their own collection.

It makes no difference what happens to this item after you've delivered the item to the buyer at the address of record.  In a sense, it's none of your business what they do with it and whatever they do with it doesn't put you more at risk.

Essentially, the above scenario is no different than what happens when you sell to someone who uses a re-shipper to transport the merchandise they purchased from a US seller to their foreign address. 

Might be some food for thought...   

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[1stufftobuy]

I have an order through Aramex International Courier to a country I don’t ship to.

Check out Aramex on Yelp. Here’s one example.

“Ordered a product from me online, then returned a broken item. I can't suggest strongly enough to avoid this company at all costs. Complete trash.”

There needs to be a way to cancel these orders that are going through very shady reshippers without having to call CS avoiding a defect.

[d-k_treasures]

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@holmaneva-2 wrote:

I have read that if the buyer loses the ebay claim, which they probably will given ebay policy, they then open a claim through PP which has no such reshipping protection for sellers in their policy. Then it is not so cut and dry as to who will win. Some have won their cases (mainly by pointing out descepencies in the buyer's story in communications, so basically they outed themselves) and some did lose. Also, if seller states they do not ship internationally, buyers who use reshipppers to purchase from them are in effect forcing them to do so and therefore making any problem arising more complicated by ignoring the seller's wishes. If possible I would block reshipping buyers proactively before they buy, but if they want, they can just select a reshipper with different address & change their name.

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But if they file thru paypal, the buyer has to pay return shipping.

[164nc]

I agree. It is still international shipping which means more to go wrong as there are more sets of people involved. There is the reshipper, customs, in country mail handlers/delivery. Reshippers by their very nature are problematic because they unpack and repack the items. And they do it in the most economical way for them & not best for item safety. And then there is the potential for exposure to scammers worldwide to add to potential problems.

In theory, all sellers have to worry about is getting a "Delivered" status to the US reshipper to be in the clear. A reshipped item supposedly voids any Ebay guarantee to the buyer. "A reshipped shipment is not the same as a redirected shipment," is what the Ebay policy states. A difference w/o much distinction IMO. But, it is what sellers are given to deal with problems caused by seller shipping preferences being circumvented by using a reshipper.

[marinermikes]

Since you won't have a tracking number from the reshipper that sent it overseas you will loose a Pay Pal case. I lost my case because I couldn't prove that the reshipper sent it overseas. I did get my item back because it was expensive. They filed a snad with pay pal on day one hundred and seventy. That is after they lost the Ebay case.

Some, not all reshippers are using this loop hole to insure the item after they ship it over seas. Yea you get your item back. Broken and uninsured.

[164nc]

Sellers should be allowed to cancel all sales that use reshippers w/o deficit. It circumvents sellers' shipping preferences & leaves them venerable to the problems/scams they were rightly trying to avoid in the first place.

[164nc]

It like peanut butter allergy. It is still peanut butter in a sandwich or hidden in chili as a thickener. Both ways will make one sick.

[mgooch]

Rather than wait until a problem develops forcing the seller to straighten the mess out, be proactive.

When I see an address that I suspect may be that of a reshipper, I immediately Google the address and look at it using the "birds eye" view.  If it shows a warehouse with a fleet of tractor trailers around it, I probably is a reshipper.

When it is discovered that buyer is using a reshipper, in order to protect myself from the problems that may occur and to inform the buyer, I send the following email to the buyer:

"Thank you again for your purchase of the <<item>>. It has been securely packed and already has begun its shipping process. 

Since the shipping address in <<reshipper location>> is that of a reshipper, it appears that the shipment has a secondary destination. As such, it is your responsibility to notify the reshipper (<<reshipper name>>) and advise them to open and inspect the contents upon receipt. Should any shipping damage be found, they must notify me within 48 hours so corrective measures can be taken. 

If it is their intent to reship the package without inspection, please be aware that neither the USPS nor I can or will assume any responsibility or liability for any damage that might be caused during the reshipment to the secondary destination. 

Thanks again for your purchase and I hope you enjoy your <<item>>."

I have used this countless times and to date I haven't experienced a singe problem.  In fact one buyer emailed me asking for a 3-4 day inspection time rather than the stated 48 hours.  It this case it didn't matter...the buyer was then on the record as admitting a reshipper was being used.

[robot-hands]

Re-shippers is about the only time you can count on having YAC