First international scam...sorry, sale...and last.

[m20j_pilot]

After 12 years of being in-active, I started buying and selling again 2 years ago. Mostly a buyer, I've sold 30-35 items in this past year with 100% FB and 5 stars across the board. I have purchased internationally, but this incident was my first, and definitely last, international sale.

Item was an old, non-working watch, started at 1.00 and sold at 180.00. South American buyer took 2 days to pay with no communication regarding a shipping preference. I purchased postage through eBay which took payment but wouldn't let me print. Tried for hours, the page just locked up with the little timer 'circle' showing. I cancelled it and purchased through PO, First Class to Argentina. Only security option available was registered mail, an additional 43. on top of the 14. postage. I declined. Once mailed, I uploaded US Customs # and updated buyer with pics of PO/Customs receipts. No response. Later that evening I noted eBay had added tracking to the shipment, most likely linked automatically when I uploaded the Customs #.

Fast forward 12 days...

First communication from buyer. Hasn't arrived. Tracking showed acceptance, sorting, customs processing, carrier acceptance, carrier departure/uplift than nothing. A trip to the PO also revealed nothing, however a supervisor told me 'Argentina is notorious for this'. Researched eBay and by chance came across a paragraph that states Argentina is on the prohibited shipping list in eBay's Global Shipping Program. Perhaps this was the reason why I couldn't print the label, even though I didn't use GS. (In the end I never did find out.) I emailed buyer, explained to him what I'd found out and asked him to wait a few more days.

A week later I get notification of a case opened against me. Buyer claimed I never sent package and was trying to scam him and demanded refund. Again, I sent pics of the package on postage scale displaying weight (something that I do for all transactions), all receipts etc, and a screen shot of tracking details from my computer. Ebay is suggesting I refund. Wanting to be fair, I offered to refund him half of purchase price + shipping. Reasoning: I purchased outside postage in the belief that a computer glitch was to blame for not printing. Had there been a warning I would have never shipped without additional arrangements from the buyer. yes, in hindsight, I should have checked to see if there were restrictions for shipping to Argentina. This was my biggest mistake. Still, I had proof of shipping and tracking confirmed the package left the country. Logically, that should release my liability, and if it doesn't, at what point is it released? Say, for example, if a package is tracked and shows delivery, if someone steals it from the mailbox am I still liable? If so, what is the point of tracking? Additionally, this buyer knew his country was on eBay's restricted list. He has an eBay store that sells LGBT themed post cards and an occasional vintage watch in the 100. dollar range. While he wasn't required to do so, a message from him with a shipping preference could have saved a lot of hassle. To me, that's common sense. Then again, why should he worry? He knows he is either going to get the package, his money back, or, if so inclined and with intent, both. THIS is what eBay WON'T tell you. While waiting for a reply from him, eBay stepped in and ruled in his favor. I was never even contacted to get my side of the story. I also lost my seller fee refund because the buyer asked Ebay to step in. I appealed and lost. AND...to top it off, buyer leaves me negitive FB for which I reported him and still awaiting answer.

I read every one of his 130 or so ratings. In 7 purchases he made from US sellers since 2012, 2 of them resulted in him filing a case. Sellers posted this under positive feedback. He has also changed his user name 6 times in that same time span. This guy is a scammer and is taking advantage of a loophole created by eBay's skewed logic and buyer protection plan. And while I take responsibility and full blame for the mistakes I made in this, it's not about the money. It's the principle. Hopefully, someone will read this and learn from it. I'm debating closing my account.

[fashunu4eeuh]

The point at which your liability is released is when your package is documented as delivered by the carrier. That documentation must be “online viewable” to be acceptable to ebay when a Not Received case is opened.

So sorry this happened to you. 

[kattinsanity]

First, this same thing could have happened even if you had sold it to a buyer here in the USA.  If tracking doesn't show any item shipped to anywhere as delivered you owe the buyer 100% of their payment~~there is NO WAY a buyer should even consider settling for 50%.  YOU didn't know it wasn't a good idea to ship to his country~~why should he (as the buyer) have known that??  He abided by the terms in your listing~~you need to face the fact that HE did nothing wrong.   Your buyer bid, won and paid for the item and had NOTHING~~you had his money and thought he should share in the "blame" and accept 50%?  You need to spend some time learning YOUR risks as a seller here~~as well as your obligations to buyers when things go wrong.

I'm sure you received an "unresolved case" defect for this transaction~~only a few of them and ebay will suspend your selling abilities here.  That suspension is for the rest of your life. Before selling any more items you need to know what ebays seller policies are~~and abide by them.

[siayan]

Some countries have terribly unreliable Postal Services. Some can take 30 days to arrive, some will never arrive. South America is one of the worst. When listing items it is the sellers responsibility to know this and there are ways to avoid selling to those countries.

With that said it is the sellers responsibility to get the package to the buyers provided mailbox. Once that is done it is the buyers responsibility. Sellers need proof of delivery if a case is open, if there is no proof the seller will loose. If there is proof the buyer looses.

That is the way it works, the good bad and ugly. That was the rules when you agreed to list. eBay 101 leason learned. When someone messages me to alter my shipping to get cheap first class shipping or send to a country GSP doesn't ship to I see these posts and say no. I learned the same way as did many on this board.

[thenobletuckylife]

Morning,

It really bothers me to read stories like this and I am truly sorry for you.

I am not sure why, but so many new sellers come here with a completely wrong idea of how it works.

Personally I feel much of the problem is not ebays...it is the expectation that sellers have that items they have are in such demand that they are willing to sell/ship around the world and that if there is a problem it is now ebays fault or the buyer is a scammer.

The only advice I can give you is that you really need to start small...sell only to folks here in the US to start and most of all realize that you need to know the value of the item you are selling and really lower your expectations. Ebay is long past the years of people willing to pay ridiculous prices for things.

Ebay gave you many options to avoid this happening and you did not use them. Blaming them and the buyer is completely the wrong approach.

Mr C

[kattinsanity]

I got to the point a LONG time ago that I won't even ship to AK or HI~~let alone to some other country.  I've heard ebays GSP isn't all it's cracked up to be either.

[m20j_pilot]

Thanks for the reply and insight...

Hindsight is always 20/20, and I fully acknowledge the mistakes I made in this. ECS told me that I was ultimately found at fault for shipping to a restricted country. I get that. However, had there been a warning when I sucessfully purchased...but couldn't print...my shipping label through eBay's postage program this transaction would have never happened the way it did. For example, if the screen had said, "The destination country you are sending to is considered restricted according to ebay's rules and regs, do so at your own risk" or something along those lines instead of...well, nothing, that would have helped. The bottom line is, I should have done more research. I didn't,  and based on the evidence I uncovered believe I got scammed. Either way, the point I was trying to make in posting this incident is this:

If you unknowingly ship to a country that eBay considers restricted, all the buyer has to do is claim 'not received' and eBay will grant a refund. No questions asked. Had I used the GS program, this wouldn't have happened, however I was under the assumption it was something I had to sign up for, etc, and since this was a one time thing it seemed like a lot of extra hassle for nothing.

Careless mistake? Perhaps, but an honest and very simple one to make.

[bremontoy0]

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@m20j_pilot wrote:
He has an eBay store that sells LGBT themed post cards and an occasional vintage watch in the 100. dollar range.

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What on earth does this have to do with anything?

If you cant prove delivery, you lose the case. The mbg is pretty clear on this

[missjen831]

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@thenobletuckylife wrote:

Morning,

It really bothers me to read stories like this and I am truly sorry for you.

I am not sure why, but so many new sellers come here with a completely wrong idea of how it works.

Personally I feel much of the problem is not ebays...it is the expectation that sellers have that items they have are in such demand that they are willing to sell/ship around the world and that if there is a problem it is now ebays fault or the buyer is a scammer.

The only advice I can give you is that you really need to start small...sell only to folks here in the US to start and most of all realize that you need to know the value of the item you are selling and really lower your expectations. Ebay is long past the years of people willing to pay ridiculous prices for things.

Ebay gave you many options to avoid this happening and you did not use them. Blaming them and the buyer is completely the wrong approach.

Mr C

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As usual, you hit the nail on the head Mr.C!

Somehow, somewhere along the way, many of these sellers have come to have an incorrect understanding of ebay/paypal policies. Many have made incorrect assumptions and learned the hardway. Can't blame ebay or whatever venue they sell on. On my main selling venue, a lot of sellers think tracking is for the buyers protection and that if the buyer pays with paypal (goods/services pmt) and requests an untrackable service (a lot of these are US to Canada or Canada to the US transactions and the sellers offer tracked and untracked lettermail) that the buyer is the one assuming the risk! That if the buyer didn't pay for tracked shipping, then the buyer has no buyer protection. HOW they came to that conclusion is beyond me. Many ebay sellers honestly think their responsibility ends when the item is handed off to the carrier. I will never understand why they don't read the seller protection policy to see HOW and WHEN ebay covers them.

[thenobletuckylife]

Hi Jen,

Back in the day when folks were begging sellers to list stuff just so they could buy it (at least it seemed that way) I still prepared extensively for selling here.

I knew the person I could trust and count on the most was me.

If ebay wanted to be my sidekick so be it but I was not about to let myself get caught up into something I didn't know how to handle.

Mr C

[missjen831]

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@m20j_pilot wrote:

Thanks for the reply and insight...

Hindsight is always 20/20, and I fully acknowledge the mistakes I made in this. ECS told me that I was ultimately found at fault for shipping to a restricted country. I get that. However, had there been a warning when I sucessfully purchased...but couldn't print...my shipping label through eBay's postage program this transaction would have never happened the way it did. For example, if the screen had said, "The destination country you are sending to is considered restricted according to ebay's rules and regs, do so at your own risk" or something along those lines instead of...well, nothing, that would have helped. The bottom line is, I should have done more research. I didn't,  and based on the evidence I uncovered believe I got scammed. Either way, the point I was trying to make in posting this incident is this:

If you unknowingly ship to a country that eBay considers restricted, all the buyer has to do is claim 'not received' and eBay will grant a refund. No questions asked. Had I used the GS program, this wouldn't have happened, however I was under the assumption it was something I had to sign up for, etc, and since this was a one time thing it seemed like a lot of extra hassle for nothing.

Careless mistake? Perhaps, but an honest and very simple one to make.

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Customer service lied and gave you bad information. You didn't ship to a "restricted country". Ebay doesn't control where you ship. They don't restrict countries. There was no need for ebay to give you a warning. They are just the venue that you advertise on. Ultimately, the burden is on the SELLER to know which countries they can safely ship to and which shipping methods come with delivery confirmation to each country. Ebay allows you to ship wherever you want. The bottom line is, you lost because you don't have proof of delivery. The buyers country is totally irrelevant. You would be in the same situation no matter where on Earth you shipped, if you don't have proof of delivery. The seller protection policy is clear on this http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-protection.html

[a_c_green]

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jen_proudleowife wrote: 
Customer Service lied and gave you bad information. You didn't ship to a "restricted country." Ebay doesn't control where you ship. They don't restrict countries. 

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Maybe CS was referring to the Global Shipping Program: perhaps that does not accept shipments to Argentina...? The OP is still free to ship it himself if he wants.

One other point: While the USPS listing of import restrictions for Argentina (here) doesn't make any mention of watches, the FedEx "Cross-Border Compliance" page for Argentina (here) does explicitly list clocks and watches as prohibited items. I don't know who's correct, or whether Customs would really care if the item wasn't declared to be high-value.

[missjen831]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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jen_proudleowife wrote: 
Customer Service lied and gave you bad information. You didn't ship to a "restricted country." Ebay doesn't control where you ship. They don't restrict countries. 

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Maybe CS was referring to the Global Shipping Program: perhaps that does not accept shipments to Argentina...? The OP is still free to ship it himself if he wants.

One other point: While the USPS listing of import restrictions for Argentina (here) doesn't make any mention of watches, the FedEx "Cross-Border Compliance" page for Argentina (here) does explicitly list clocks and watches as prohibited items. I don't know who's correct, or whether Customs would really care if the item wasn't declared to be high-value.

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They could have been referring to the GSP but they still lied and gave bad info to the OP since it wasn't a GSP sale.....so the OP didn't technically ship to a "restricted" country. 

[m20j_pilot]

Thank you for the reply. 

Point taken. Perhaps I was a little overzealous in my strive to be as concise as possible regarding the details/facts of the event. It certainly wasn't my intention to offend anyone, and if I have done so, I sicerely apologize.

[chipper01work]

I have about 100 International transactions under my belt totalling about $15,000 in sales over the years. A couple items (Herman Miller rope edge chairs) were in excess of $1,500 a package. Never had a single issue with any of those transactions. I only ship to most European countries, Hong Kong, Japan and Australia though. All of South America, Russia and the Middle East is on my "don't ship to" list.