EBay's Protection Guidelines: Why you cannot protect yourself against bad buyers

[projectasylumbooks]

DISCLAIMER: I am posting this as "helpful tips", words of experience which may be useful to new sellers who may find themselves in this position.  Your time and consideration are greatly appreciated.

EBay's "Policy Guidelines" are simply that -- guidelines.  They're suggestions, not rules.  This means that nobody is required to follow them: not the seller, not the buyer, not even EBay.  Many sellers are getting falsely reported for fake items, items not matching listing description, or for "canceling orders" after they were marked "shipped".

Although I'm displeased that Youtube and Facebook have sent their troll armies over here... I'm actually thankful that EBay openly throws us to the wolves.  I know this may sound weird, and it may sound like I've suddenly gone against my disclaimer.  In reality, however, it's from the 10+ years of dealing with troll armies that I've developed a better understanding of how online platforms operate.

I'd rather deal with the con pointing his gun to my face, than the one patting my back with his knife.

EBay's not the first platform to allow troll armies a higher standing than legit users.  As more of these platforms exist online (even Craiglist has its moments, although it's more of a community-roasting, "I'm-just-here-for-the-comments" platform), we have to ask ourselves the dreaded question:

"Why are we selling our stuff on an 8chan-esque platform like EBay, when EBay makes money regardless of our buyers being legit or cons?"

Think about it for a second.  We chose to set up an account on EBay.  We chose to put our bank and PayPal account information on EBay.  We chose to take a lot of time and effort out of our everyday lives, just to properly list items on EBay that end up hurting us financially.

All of that personal data, all of that user data, all of the searches, the purchases, the sales, the feedback, even the items themselves, every bit of that information is then packaged by EBay and sold to third-party advertisers we don't know.  Those third-party advertisers then pay EBay for ad impressions.  EBay gets paid for every click on those ads, too.

The sellers (and buyers) never get a penny of it.  Our job is to list items, and buy items.  Selling those items doesn't make EBay as much money when we succeed, because there's no profit in doing things right the first time.

So what does any of this have to do with EBay's guidelines and troll armies?  Simple.  Without sellers, EBay would quickly cease to exist.  Buyers come and go, advertisers are a dime a dozen, but we keep the lights on and feed the EBay management and staff.  And EBay's made it clear, through its actions, that we're not that important for EBay's continued existence.

EBay's not the job creator.  The sellers are.  And while it's in our interest, as sellers, to help maintain the integrity of this platform... it's not our job.  Sellers aren't given job applications.  Sellers aren't given a I-4 or I-9  tax form.  Sellers don't get paychecks from EBay.

This is why EBay has a "Buyer Protection Guarantee", but no "Seller Protection Guarantee".

That's one of the hardest lessons I had to learn from years of being on social media (Twitter, Facebook, G+, YouTube, Tsu, and Craigslist): we forget we're the ones in charge, and that we can make a lot more money from our stuff offline -- if we choose.

My last purchase is expected to arrive on Monday.  Whatever you decide, may Fortune favor your Paths in the days ahead.

Sincerely,
Nick Moore, CEO
Project Asylum Books, LLC

[mistwomandancing]

???  so, what exactly are you getting at here?  You've run into trouble?  You're warning others because of a bad encounter you've experienced? 

We do hear from sellers who come here to unload and/or warn off others when they, themselves, have encountered a problem, but from what you're writing here, I'm not quite "getting it"  Regardless, good luck to you in future.

[megadestroyers]

You're title is 180 degrees wrong.

Fact is, you can.  Fact is, you must.

Otherwise, didn't get much beyond that snafu.

[deep-garnet-red]

Troll armies?

I don't lose money on here. I make money. If I was losing money I would go elsewhere. 

It's been my experience that most buyers and sellers are honest here. 

[deep-garnet-red]

BTW, you didn't offer any tips.

Tip #1 - describe items correctly.

Tip#2  - ship on time

Tip #3 - deliver what you promised

Follow those tips and you have protected yourself against most problems.

[plumbingspecials]

I would really like if sellers had the option to automatically block buyers with TWO or more policy violations. That would help better protect us from the scam buyers. (It is currently at FOUR - and that's too many violations to be comfortable with; it shows that particular buyer is habitual in violating policy "guidelines".)
Other than that, I do everything I can to protect myself. It's time consuming at times, indeed.

[retrose1]

OP, if you had spent some of your conclusion gathering experience in real world retail instead of corporate online companies, you would have come to your conclusions a lot faster and a lot clearer.

ebay is a company - companies exist to make money for themselves any way they can.  The companies figure out when they make the most money and then make sure they are well stocked with that.  ebay makes the majority of their money from buyers - and realized that scammy buyers will buy a lot more than honest ones.  So that brings us to the logical conclusion that ebay has policies that will keep scammy buyers buying.

[retrose1]

---

@plumbingspecials wrote:
I would really like if sellers had the option to automatically block buyers with TWO or more policy violations. That would help better protect us from the scam buyers. (It is currently at FOUR - and that's too many violations to be comfortable with; it shows that particular buyer is habitual in violating policy "guidelines".)
Other than that, I do everything I can to protect myself. It's time consuming at times, indeed.

---

Buyers don't rack up policy violations, they rack up Unpaids and reports from angry sellers.  You can block for unpaids.

I want a block for buyers who have had 2 or more reports against them from sellers in a month.

[rw011164]

Well in spite of most of what you have written, I do agree that we, as sellers are in charge of our own businesses. We are free to list or goods wherever we choose as beady for us. 

For many that is ebay, for some what may not be a good fit so you do need to research to see what works best for your business model and it is a constant assessment and sometimes reassessment....but we as sellers are responsible for our choices.

I will remark on protections since you bring it up and seem to be addressing New sellers, ebay does provide excellent protections for buyers through their MBG program. Sellers are not protected against the buyers policy. Sellers have only very limited and very specific protections, such as protecting from item not received cases where online viewable tracking shows delivery.

Other risks for sellers are inherent and exist for any seller selling wares anywhere. In a brick and mortar store a merchant must protect themselves from theft, loss, etc. Online a seller must protect themselves from losses also.  Losses must be evaluated and accounted for as the cost of doing business. There are some ways a smart seller can limit their losses: do not list in risky categories for example. I would never list in certain categories myself. The categories I list in are not highly scammed categories and honestly I have not been a victim of any scam. That is not true of my brick and mortar days where we did experience am armed robbery, a break in theft, bad checks, etc. I actually feel much safer listing here.

Somme sellers think every return is a scam. There are legitimate reasons for a return particularly when the buyer cannot see the item until it arrives. The only returns which are truly scams are faulty returns or fraudulent returns where the seller receives something different back or where the buyer removed parts, did not return exactly what was sent. This is more of a theft situation and currently there is no specific ebay protection from that. It is one area where I do think what should do better on. Even though I have never experienced such a thing I do think it does happen from time to time and what should assist with these kinds of losses

[couldabeenworse]

So what does any of this have to do with EBay's guidelines and troll armies?  Simple.  Without sellers, EBay would quickly cease to exist.  Buyers come and go, advertisers are a dime a dozen, but we keep the lights on and feed the EBay management and staff.  And EBay's made it clear, through its actions, that we're not that important for EBay's continued existence.

I have no idea what the rest of your post was getting at, but this part is untrue.  eBay does understand it needs sellers, but it believes it needs sellers that accept 21st Century business models.

[johnrj1226]

@retrose

It seems your primarily used fixed price listing format for your items.  All you need to do is add the Immediate Payment Required option to your listings.  You can even do it on the BIN option for any auction style listings.  With IPR the listing does not end until it is paid for or listing period has expired.

We do only fixed priced options w/ IPR and haven't had a non payer is quite awhile (over 3 years).

Read this -

http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/require-immediate-payment.html

[retrose1]

---

@johnrj1226 wrote:

@retrose

It seems your primarily used fixed price listing format for your items.  All you need to do is add the Immediate Payment Required option to your listings.  You can even do it on the BIN option for any auction style listings.  With IPR the listing does not end until it is paid for or listing period has expired.

We do only fixed priced options w/ IPR and haven't had a non payer is quite awhile (over 3 years).

Read this -

http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/require-immediate-payment.html

---

Thank you john, But I have very few problems with unpaids on my FP listings.  My problems with unpaids come from auction listings.  Buyer bids a low price and wins, but has scored the same item days earlier while the auction is running to it's end so when the auction is over the buyer doesn't want it anymore.

Right now on ebay, selling common items at auction is the cause for a lot of unnecessary UIDs.

My problems come from buyers claiming they didn't get their item - I am sure that if I posted the tracking numbers, the problem would decline, but I like flushing out potential scammers so i can block them.

[theheadphonecompany]

"eBay does understand it needs sellers, but it believes it needs sellers that accept 21st Century business models."

Wrong, incorrect, false, and misleading.

eBay FULLY understands it DOES NOT need sellers - and eBay's actions and policies are the plain definitions of those understandings.

It of course starts with comments from the CEO "sellers are just noise" - is that an "understanding that they need sellers"? Hardly. Its what eBay REALLY believes its sellers are. They DONT want sellers complaining, asking for major changes, crying about being stolen from - they simply DONT care. That statement - from the CEO says it all.

Try getting some "seller protection" - I DARE YOU. In fact "I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU". Call eBay CS and tell them of your issues. Tell them that one of THIER snowflake buyers stole from you and see what happens?  Maybe you will get one of eBays classic "too bad on you" lines from thier poorly trained overseas CS agents.

Since you cant/WONT be getting any "seller protection", maybe eBay will have a "Seller UPdate" that will help change policy to help you. OOPS, that wont happen EITHER. From automatic relists, to removal of seller discounts, to the theft of sellers pictures for the catalog - the list is ENDLESS. Its never a seller UPdate, its always a seller DOWNdate. Theres never "good news", theres never MORE .. of ANYTHING. So again, is that "an understanding that it needs sellers"?

Read the forums here and comments from eBays own employees. HARD questions never get answers, and the softball questions are just that .. fluff. Go ahead - ask a blue here "why eBay sanctions THEFT from sellers visa via the returns policies" and see what they say.

What exactly are " 21st Century business models"?  Is that "the customer is always right, even when they are wrong"? Really? ID so - then put that line in the TOS/UA and tell sellers "if you get a SNAD case or anything else - YOU WILL ALWAYS LOOSE".  (HINT: they cant, because then the charade would be over". And PLEASE lets not compare eBay to Amazon, and cry "but they do it on AMAZON THAT WAY!".  When you sell on Amazon you arent making a SALE, you are simply fulfilling a sale THEY made. On eBay (the "we are just a venue people") its supposed to be YOUR game, your listing, YOUR POLICIES .. except when it isnt (always).

NO retailer would put up with the returns issues that eBay forces on its sellers - is that 21rst century ?   Retailers get to examin the item FIRST and THEN decide what/how much if at all there will be refunded. Theres no way you can buy an iPhone 7 from them and return a Motorola Flip Phone, yet you can on eBay - with EASE. What does eBay say "sorry, learn to take losses".

Yes every business has losses - MOST you can plan for, but not here. In real life you take out insurance (car, home, life) to insure you DONT take a loss, but on eBay between the fake new of "Seller Protection" and eBays "the buyer is always right" attitude - YOU CANT protect yourself - its IMPOSSIBLE.

Is that 21rst Century?

eBay makes PLENTY of money from sellers - and not just the regular ones. eBay has THOUSANDS of side deals with distributors, makes money from advertising (front and back door), they make money from Stubhub - they dont rely on "grannies attic sellers" .. that ended in the early 2000s.

The news today is Amazon and Whole Foods ... the news is NOT eBay. Analysts claim Amazon will OWN the food business in the next 2 yrs ... meanwhile eBay gets its jollies and is ONLY concerned with giving sellers defects and negatives ... its time eBay GREW UP.

Sellers can accept most reasonable demands, but NOT when they are all stacked against them.

[wolf*song]

"We become what we behold."

I think this gent's spent so much time studying the workings of the trolls that he's taken on their personality traits.

OP, if you're leaving, no need to make a speech.  We've heard it all before.  See ya.

[itsjustasprain]

---

@projectasylumbooks wrote:

DISCLAIMER: I am posting this as "helpful tips", words of experience which may be useful to new sellers who may find themselves in this position.  Your time and consideration are greatly appreciated.

---

The only new seller here seems to be you. Your feedback shows barely any sales or even purchases. In your only other post here you were freaking out over what you called a buyr with a fake address in Colorado and it had to be explained to you what a reshipper was. Now youre off on some speech about 'troll armies'? Maybe a little less social media would be a good idea. Did you have a problem you need help with?