eBay

crxtreasures · ‎01-08-2018

For those of you who read our previous post about authenticating autographs through Beckett, we have an update. We ended up sending in 8 items and sadly only 2 of them were deemed authentic. This was quite surprising because we really thought they were legit. The issue now is what to do about the items that were not authenticated. How can we list these and accurately describe them to a potential buyer who may be interested in the item simply for the item itself and not the signature? Saying right out that Beckett did not find them authentic does not seem a wise idea. Any help on how to do an accurate description of these unauthenticated items would be greatly appreciated.

crxtreasures · ‎01-10-2018

I'm Sheri, the store manager. I'm the one who's been dealing with this and turning to the community for help. I'd really like to be able to list the unauthenticated items with a disclaimer. If I word it correctly, do you think I can list these and protect us from any trouble? I'm sure there's someone out there who sees the value the item would have even if the signatures weren't present. I'm just having a hard time coming up with the proper wording for an accurate description. "Buy at your own risk" isn't going to cut it.

chrysylys · ‎01-10-2018

@ed8108 wrote:
It has been said that certificates of authenticity do not change a forgery or fake into being authentic.

It has also been said that the lack of a certificate does not turn a genuine item into a fake.

My signature is never the same twice, so I don't imagine a celebrity's is either. Couple that with the rush of a public appearance, a late night out the night before and a wicked hangover and I don't see how any 'authenticator' could possibly say for sure, either way.

Forget keeping up with the Joneses. Be the Finklegrubers!
OK kids, time to get the Dodge loaded up again. I hear 'Poppy's By the Tree' calling. This trip might be a long one too.

sockmonkeydave · ‎01-10-2018

@crxtreasures

@crxtreasures wrote:
I'm Sheri, the store manager. I'm the one who's been dealing with this and turning to the community for help. I'd really like to be able to list the unauthenticated items with a disclaimer. If I word it correctly, do you think I can list these and protect us from any trouble? I'm sure there's someone out there who sees the value the item would have even if the signatures weren't present. I'm just having a hard time coming up with the proper wording for an accurate description. "Buy at your own risk" isn't going to cut it.

Hi Sheri.

If the signatures were not there, then no problem... but,

The siggys are there, and that could be a big problem.

If you list and say they are unauthenticated, you are admitting, you don't know.

So a buyer could say they were fake, and get their money back.

And a good chance ebay would not make them return the item.

Are they real... are they fake, there is no way to know.

I would say swap meet, where you can say "I don't know" if asked.

The guy who could not authenticate, was saying he did not know.

( unless he said it was fake, but even then, a hard night out with the Rolling Stones, I can't write )

jobs-7 · ‎01-10-2018

@crxtreasures wrote:
As examples, we have a Poison LP and a Stryper LP.

Wait. Someone actually forged autographs of Stryper? Poison maybe, but Stryper? Stuff on this board never ceases to amaze me.

femmefan1946 · ‎01-10-2018

How do we create a listing that says, "Ignore the autographs because they aren't authenticated" and hope the buyer doesn't care?

Grammar.

Don't use the verb form, use the adjective. Authentic not authenticated.

You have authenticated (in philately we say 'expertised') them and they are fakes.

You could say:

"Autographs are forgeries." and include a picture of the bad certificate. The item itself would include the certificate.

sockmonkeydave · ‎01-10-2018

@femmefan1946

@femmefan1946 wrote:
How do we create a listing that says, "Ignore the autographs because they aren't authenticated" and hope the buyer doesn't care?

Grammar.
Don't use the verb form, use the adjective. Authentic not authenticated.
You have authenticated (in philately we say 'expertised') them and they are fakes.
You could say:
"Autographs are forgeries." and include a picture of the bad certificate. The item itself would include the certificate.

OMG.... make the fact they are forged, and include the bad certificate as a part of the deal.

Now... that is thinking out side the box... I like it...

crxtreasures · ‎01-10-2018

I know, right? There are three of us here and when we looked at these we thought there was no way they couldn't be legit. You can tell they were written with marker and looked a whole lot like other signatures from the same people. We think that what probably happened is that the person/people who looked at these just didn't have enough to compare them too, so had to go with saying they weren't real. If they were from more popular well known people, they probably would have had more examples for comparison which would have changed the outcome. Regardless, we have to accept the hand we've been dealt.

crxtreasures · ‎01-10-2018

What I'm trying to do is come up with a disclaimer that tells the buyer we're not saying this is real. We're saying it's a cool item you might want anyway. If you buy it, once you own it, you can't complain to eBay that we sold you a fake. We aren't saying it's legit so if you get it checked on your own and they say it's not, don't come back at us because we told you so. I'm just having a hard time coming up with the correct wording that will tell the truth and protect us at the same time.

a_c_green · ‎01-10-2018

@jobs-7 wrote:
@crxtreasures wrote:
As examples, we have a Poison LP and a Stryper LP.
Wait. Someone actually forged autographs of Stryper? Poison maybe, but Stryper? Stuff on this board never ceases to amaze me.

I was thinking the same thing. Haven't actually seen the autographs in question, but I'm going to guess that they're little more than indecipherable scribbles. They were either applied while the items were being held out to the artists during a crowded meet-'n'-greet rope line event, or backstage someplace where the band sat down amidst a mountain of opened memorabilia boxes from a Chinese supplier. Each member picked up a Sharpie and applied a scribble to each item while passing them along in daisy-chain fashion, one to the next, and back into the box at the end.

A friend of ours grew up in California many years ago, working in a gas station there in the 1960s, and one of his prized possessions was an autograph from Steve McQueen, who stopped in for gas one day, and gave him a signature on a blank gas-station receipt. Flash-forward 50 years, and he tried selling it on eBay. It sold promptly without a certification... only to have the buyer file a SNAD later on, claiming that it had been ruled a fake. Things did not end well.

The only provenance or certification I think I'd really trust would be a photograph of the artist as he signed it. Anything less than that may just be wishful thinking.

crxtreasures · ‎01-10-2018

I'll snap a couple of photos of the "fakes" and post them on here later. I'm interested in what everyone's opinion is. This is turning out to be interesting...

sockmonkeydave · ‎01-10-2018

@crxtreasures

@crxtreasures wrote:
What I'm trying to do is come up with a disclaimer that tells the buyer we're not saying this is real. We're saying it's a cool item you might want anyway. If you buy it, once you own it, you can't complain to eBay that we sold you a fake. We aren't saying it's legit so if you get it checked on your own and they say it's not, don't come back at us because we told you so. I'm just having a hard time coming up with the correct wording that will tell the truth and protect us at the same time.

I get what you are saying, but... there is no correct wording.

You have an item that has a siggy that you can't prove, and you have doubt.

Femme and I were both being glib, saying sell it as a known fake, with the cert.

BUT you can't do that, nothing good will come.

If you say the sig is fake, you are open to SNAD, no matter what you put in the listing.

If you don't say a thing about the sig, SNAD for writing on the card.

This is just one of the times when you say... risk vs reward.

Swap meet....

chrysylys · ‎01-10-2018

Stop in to the Weekly Chat in about a half hour --- link at the top of the front page of this board.

Forget keeping up with the Joneses. Be the Finklegrubers!
OK kids, time to get the Dodge loaded up again. I hear 'Poppy's By the Tree' calling. This trip might be a long one too.

sockmonkeydave · ‎01-10-2018

@a_c_green

@a_c_green wrote:
@jobs-7 wrote:
@crxtreasures wrote:
As examples, we have a Poison LP and a Stryper LP.
Wait. Someone actually forged autographs of Stryper? Poison maybe, but Stryper? Stuff on this board never ceases to amaze me.
I was thinking the same thing. Haven't actually seen the autographs in question, but I'm going to guess that they're little more than indecipherable scribbles. They were either applied while the items were being held out to the artists during a crowded meet-'n'-greet rope line event, or backstage someplace where the band sat down amidst a mountain of opened memorabilia boxes from a Chinese supplier. Each member picked up a Sharpie and applied a scribble to each item while passing them along in daisy-chain fashion, one to the next, and back into the box at the end.

A friend of ours grew up in California many years ago, working in a gas station there in the 1960s, and one of his prized possessions was an autograph from Steve McQueen, who stopped in for gas one day, and gave him a signature on a blank gas-station receipt. Flash-forward 50 years, and he tried selling it on eBay. It sold promptly without a certification... only to have the buyer file a SNAD later on, claiming that it had been ruled a fake. Things did not end well.

The only provenance or certification I think I'd really trust would be a photograph of the artist as he signed it. Anything less than that may just be wishful thinking.

OMG I have an autographed picture of Captain Kangaroo.

He was holding my baby girl... we both had blood shot eyes.... not the baby.

He had the flu, I had a hang over...

murphy71605 · ‎01-10-2018

If these were mine, I would personally make sure that they never ended up on an online auction. You can do whatever you want with these but selling fake autographs is never a good idea. They will just end up being passed off as authentic to someone else down the line. As others have said you can re-submit if you have doubts about the authentication service but that will cost more money. Beckett is a reliable authentication service and not a fly by night company. If they were deemed as not authentic that would be good enough for me. I would attempt to return them to whoever you got them from, and if they refuse, they should be exposed for selling fakes.