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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

This one is probably for Mike to answer. I just had a thought that we were all trying to put extra weight in the Life-Like Mallets because they do not pull as well as the Rivarossi Mallets. Let me say this. The Riv are Y6b models and the LL are Y3 models. Now from what I can decifer, the Y3 was a lot lighter and had less tractive efort and less drawbar horsepower than the Y6b. Could the modeling efforts of the manufacturers be trying to mimic reality? Also, how does drawbar H.P. and tractive effort compute into tons that can be pulled or number of cars? And just how many cars or tons, on average, can these engines pull? I realize there are many factors influencing the consist like ruling grades, curves, loads or empties. A ball park would be OK. How about it Mike. Can you enlighten us please? Pete
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

janesew
Enthusiast
Great Questions Pete! It would be interesting to apply the second question to other engines as well. (Especially other later steam and early diesels! 😄 ) Fred
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

I've always assumed that real locos could pull WAY more cars than a model. The trains I see going by are VERY long! YES I know they are ALL ALWAYS "MUs", but still the trains are dozens of cars long. Who did the 100 car train in G1? Marc
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Also steam versus diesel. How many of each would it take to pull a 70 car loaded coal train? I have kind of been under the impression that steam had more pulling power. Have also heard the UP still uses some of it's big steam locos to help in the mountains with long heavy freights. So far plenty of general questions but we await Mike to enlighten us. Lou
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

janesew
Enthusiast
At last year's NMRA Toronto convention I heard a story from the engineer of a "tourist" steam loco who went to the rescue of a diesel freight that broke down up a steep grade. They unhooked the steam passenger cars and had to do something to the front coupler but it was succesful pushing the diesel and frieght cars and saved the RR lots of time and, I imagine, money. That would have been a great pic for railfans! I'm sorry, I wish I could remember the story better. Fred
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Doug did the 100 car train. Pete
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

To add to the question, does a 70 ton or 100 ton capacity hopper weigh 70 or 100 tons loaded or is that the max weight including the car weight? I'm getting very basic here as I know there are a lot of numbers on the sides of the model cars that we can't read and they must really stand for something. How do the railroads figure the tonnage of a train and what motive power is required to move it? Real Railroading 101 wil now commence. I, hopefuly, proudly introduce Professor Mike Foley. Professor, Please....
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

trmwf
Enthusiast
The Prof is here. First, there is no way that LL was trying to "build in" the pulling capabilities of the Y3 vs the Y6b as I don't believe they were that much different. I have some books and will do a little research but believe all the improvements that the N&W was trying to accomplish and did so in a great many respects was in the effiency field. Less coal burnt, less water used, fewer stops for service etc all added to the operating ratio which affected the bottom line. That is why they were the last to dieselize. Their modern steam power was very efficient compared to older steam power and they were basically newer engines with a lot of life left in them. An empty freight car weighs somewhere around the 30,000 pound range. A big steam loco weighed somewhere around 1,000,000 pounds plus. If an N scale car weighs X number of ounces how many pounds would the N scale engine have to weigh to be camparable. Yes a real locomotive can pull way more then a model loco just due to the weight factor. I assume that all railroads are basically the same when it comes to tonnage, after all a ton is a ton is a ton right. The difference is in the geographics of the territory being traversed. The NS figures its' tonnage ratings based on maximum grade on a district based on being able to maintain track speed. Sandusky, Oh to Portsmouth, Oh is relatively flat with any grades being of the downhill type.and an old SD40 is rated at 10,200 tons. A modern SD70 is rated at a little over 15,000 tons. We would send a 225 car empty hopper train out of Sandusky with one SD70 or the equivilent GE brand. All though the engine could have pulled way more we were limited on the length of train the district could handle (length of sidings mostly). Coming North out of Portsmouth towards Sandusky the grades were against them and the ratings dropped dramatically to almost 7,000 tons for an SD70 which meant a 150 car coal train weighing 18,000 tons would take 3 engines of this type. If one broke down enroute it did not necessarily mean the train could not make it, it just could not make it at track speed (45 mph max for a loaded coal train) All NS engines were placed in to groups. Group1 was GP40, GP38 B23's etc. Group 2 GP 50's etc, Group 3 SD40, C37's etc, and so on up to the big ones in group 5. The Division Timetable would list the tonnage rating for each group across every district in both directions. The tonnage for a train was computor generated based on the weight of the car and the weight of contents either by actual weight or declared weight by the shipper. A 100 ton car of coal would actually be around the 130 135 ton mark when the weight of the car itself was figured in. back to steam vs diesel. A single Y6b would handle a 200 car coal train from Roanoke to Norfolk with an assist from a pusher up the grades. Today it takes 3 new wide bodies and they still need the assist up the west side of the mountains. I do not believe the story about the UP using steam in pusher service. They did at one time before becoming completely dieselized but not since then. The N&W, during the first oil crises, made serious studies about going back to steam but found the initial cost prohibitive. Now wouldn't that have been something!! Mike
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Marc The 100 car train was pulled by four LL GP-38s. Half of that train was made up of 33,000gal tank cars and auto carriers, the rest were 40 and 50ft cars plus 8 cabeese and 2 dummy engines. Doug
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Staying with theme of the question. Do any railroads today still have any steam locomotive's on the active or inactive roster? If yes who and how many or did they send all to the scrap pile? This will answer the question of using more modern diesel's with some steam loco's that does bother the rivet counters. Lou
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

To my knowledge, without any research mind you, the remaining steam locos in the US and Canada are used strictly for the tourist trade. Other countries in South America for example still use steam mixed with diesel. I think India may still have some operable steam too. Don't quote me on this. I'll have to research it. To try to help out Mike: I was reading an article in Classic Trains, Steam Glory issue and there is a chart giving these numbers. Y3: Tractive Effort 101.300 lbs. Drawbar H.P. Max 3200 Y6: Tractive Effort 132,000 lbs. Drawbar H.P. Max 5600 That's a big difference. LL needs to make a traction tire wheel set for these engines. So now I understand that the capacity weight of the car is added to the empty weight of the car for a total. So a 70T hopper will hold 70T of commodity. Clear as a bell. Pete
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Here's a web site for your searching. Was I surprised at how many steam locos were still operational. You can pick your own state or Canada or mexico or even Cuba. B-) www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/ While you are there, take a look at the Newfy RR. (NF) Pete
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

janesew
Enthusiast
Thanks a lot Mike. That was really interesting. You too Pete. I looked at the site. In Ontario there are a few operational Steamers at the Elgin Loco Works in St. Thomas. They also do restoration work on Steam, freight and passenger cars for clients all over N. America. They have two big open houses every year but if you are ever thinking of coming to the Southern Ontario region, they will let you in if you phone ahead to make arrangements. A lot of operational old diesel as well. Some static steam too. Unfortunately they told me that a lot of the old guys who do the work are getting on in years and there are very few young people with the knowledge or desire to take over operations. Fred
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Bumping this one up for Chappy. B-) & :x
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Pulling power of models vs. real engines

Pete, Thanks for the bump-up! Very interesting post. I had not seen this one before. I wonder if the Big Boys of model railroading can pull like their prototype counterparts? I don't know anyone that has a Big Boy in any scale. Do the HO versions have two or more motors? Does anyone make them in N? I'd like to see one of those pull a hundred car train, but half the train would be the locomotive. Or maybe two Big Boys, a puller and pusher. :) Chappy
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