Advice please. Suspect its fake but cannot prove so ebay will close in seller's favor.

[veechan23]

I suspected a dress I received was fake.  I explained to the seller with clear HQ photos of why the details, stitching, color, and fabric of the dress were incorrect.  She was insistent it is authentic but could not provide an invoice.  I've seen, felt, and tried on the real one before.  This dress has a weird smell, the fabric is not silk even though the real one is 100% silk, and it does not have the dry clean/composition care tag that are inside all of the brand's dresses.  When I brought this up, she then told me she purchased it at an outlet as a sample/protoype piece and sample pieces do not have care labels.  

I don't believe this brand releases their sample design dresses to the public market but I can't disprove this claim either.  I contacted the brand via call and email.  The US customer service girl on the phone said she doesn't know anything about this and has not heard of it before but cannot confirm since the seller claimed she bought it from an outlet in Australia.  The brand emailed me back that it is not a genuine product and recommend I do not buy from this seller again but eBay cannot accept this email as proof. 

I posted on a forum about how to spot fakes for this brand and others have said it's a replica.  I'm at a loss since eBay does not see this as valid evidence.  I read before that eBay says if there are strong indicators an item is not authentic, then I am protected under their money back guarantee.  Am I though?  I don't feel protected. 

I opened a return for refund and selected the reason "doesn't seem authentic" because I could not find an "item not described" reason from the options available.  The brand says they cannot authenticate the dress even if I brought it in-store because I did not buy it through them.  An eBay reps on the phone told me the return case will close in the seller's favor as I cannot authenticate it.  From there I can appeal with the reason item not as described to force the seller to pay for the return shipping label.  

What if this seller creates a shipping label that has the slowest imaginable delivery time from Australia to the US in the hopes it will get lost or returned to me?  What if she has me ship it back to a fake address?  Is this possible?  From here, can anything go wrong?  I have no idea how this will play out anymore.  

Kindly,
Frustrated buyer

[lacemaker3]

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@city*satins wrote:

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@lacemaker3 wrote:

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@albertabrightalberta wrote:
The problem in this case is that the seller is in Australia and the buyer/OP is in the US.

SNAD for international transactions doesn't require that the seller pay return shipping.

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Actually, yes it does. With a SNAD, international sellers are still required to pay for the return shipping, even though eBay can't provide a prepaid return label in this case.

The seller is expected to send the money for the return shipping to the buyer. eBay gives the seller 5 business days to do this. If they don't either refund, provide a label, or send the money for return shipping, then the buyer can contact eBay and they will refund the full purchase price without requiring the buyer to return the item.

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I have never been clear how this information is conveyed to eBay during the 5 business day period.  Is the seller offered a passway screen from which to issue a Paypal payment to the buyer or a screen in which to enter a Paypal transaction number or proof of payment to the buyer?    

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I can now confirm this by my own experience. My international return case has  just been concluded, and I have received a full refund, for both the seller's payment and the payment that was made to Pitney Bowes for the GSP shipping. Just as my original payment was divided into two on PayPal, I received two separate refunds that add up to the total amount that I was charged on eBay.

As far as the timing goes, the 5 business days was additional time that was added on to the case, when the seller failed to provide a return shipping label. In this case, the size tag on the dress I received did not match the size that was in the listing description (title, item specifics, or description).

I contacted the seller by message, then had to open a SNAD return case (wrong item sent). The seller sent multiple messages in which she  refused to accept a return. She then accepted the return case on eBay, but then sent two more messages in which she said that was a "malfunction" on the website.

At that point, the case said that I should wait until I received the return label and then send it back. I didn't receive any label, so when the time lime expired (5 business days) I called eBay customer service.

The CS rep reviewed the case, and escalated it for me. She told me that they would contact the seller to make arrangements for the return, by arranging to send me the money for the return shipping. The seller would have 5 business days to do this, and if I didn't receive it by then, I should call back again.The case said that they would respond within 48 hours, but nothing happened while I waited the 5 business days before I called again.

I haven't heard from the seller again during this time. Note that the day you call is "day 0" for these calculations.

The 5 business days expired yesterday, so I called again today. The CS rep reviewed the case again, checked to see if eBay could issue a label themselves (no, they couldn't) and then refunded me. She clearly said that I would not have to send the dress back, and that they would inform the seller about the outcome.

The refund wasn't instantaneous, but I think it was less than 10 minutes before I got an email, and the two refunds were in my PayPal account.

I'm afraid I can't answer from experience how the seller would inform eBay about sending the shipping money, but my understanding is that they would give eBay the PayPal ID for the payment by phone. The eBay CS reps can see the status of payments in your PayPal account, so they can check how much the payment was for, and to whom.

At any rate, this is how it works from the buyer's viewpoint.

[lacemaker3]

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@albertabrightalberta wrote:

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@city*satins wrote:

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@veechan23 wrote:

Perhaps, I have no idea.  But wouldn't this would be considered item not as described if it were?

Her listing did not mention it was a sample/prototype/pre-production dress.

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This is a long standing debate, never resolved - whether items purchased at outlet malls should be identified as such.

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If an item is made by the company whose name is on it, it's authentic and legally allowed to be sold, whether an outlet item, a boutique item or purchased from a discounter like TJ Maxx/Marshall's/Nordstrom Rack, etc. 

IMO, a buyer should have some responsibility in knowing what she's buying, whether an item is a MFF item or boutique style and whether it's what she wants.

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In this particular case, I think that the issue of whether the item is a *prototype* or not, is beside the point.

In the first post, OP says that the item is not real silk, although the label says that it is (Message 1 ). @city*satins' post make it clear  (Message 9 ) that this is a clear sign of a counterfeit product.

eBay's CS is being difficult because of the claim that the item is counterfeit. If the real item is really silk, and the item that was received is not silk (which seems clear from the OP's description) then the item is counterfeit.

It would appear that the issue of prototype versus regular production is a red herring. The item is either silk (as described), or it is not. It is real [silk], or it is not.

What I would take away from this is: start a case for Not as decribed, not a case for Counterfeit, or anything else. If that is the real issue.

[city*satins]

The eBay CS reps can see the status of payments in your PayPal account, so they can check how much the payment was for, and to whom.

That might have been true at one time (though I'm not certain) while eBay owned Paypal. But that ownership ended in 2015, and I am not aware of CS reps having any access to an eBay member's Paypal account that isn't directly connected to an eBay transaction and unless there's a gateway between a seller's shipping reimbursement to a buyer and the original eBay transaction, I can't see how it would be possible for a CS rep to see this directly.

[lacemaker3]

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@city*satins wrote:

The eBay CS reps can see the status of payments in your PayPal account, so they can check how much the payment was for, and to whom.

That might have been true at one time (though I'm not certain) while eBay owned Paypal. But that ownership ended in 2015, and I am not aware of CS reps having any access to an eBay member's Paypal account that isn't directly connected to an eBay transaction and unless there's a gateway between a seller's shipping reimbursement to a buyer and the original eBay transaction, I can't see how it would be possible for a CS rep to see this directly.

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My experience relating to this issue (eBay CS reps accessing PayPal information) has all been post-PayPal-split.

Yes, they can access the eBay member's PayPal account information for eBay transactions, even after the PayPal split.

[city*satins]

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@lacemaker3 wrote:

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@city*satins wrote:

The eBay CS reps can see the status of payments in your PayPal account, so they can check how much the payment was for, and to whom.

That might have been true at one time (though I'm not certain) while eBay owned Paypal. But that ownership ended in 2015, and I am not aware of CS reps having any access to an eBay member's Paypal account that isn't directly connected to an eBay transaction and unless there's a gateway between a seller's shipping reimbursement to a buyer and the original eBay transaction, I can't see how it would be possible for a CS rep to see this directly.

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My experience relating to this issue (eBay CS reps accessing PayPal information) has all been post-PayPal-split.

Yes, they can access the eBay member's PayPal account information for eBay transactions, even after the PayPal split.

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Well again, even if that is so - unless there is a gateway link in the dispute console between the eBay transaction and the one-time payment for return shipping from the seller to the buyer - an eBay CS rep I don't see how an eBay CS rep would  be able to see this.  As you know, if you've ever used SEND PAYMENT from Paypal, there's no connection to eBay.  

Further - what strikes me as additionally problematic - ebay wants to prevent sellers from having buyers' email addresses, and this can be expected to pose even more problems for even the best-intentioned sellers trying to reimburse a buyer via a stand-alone payment.  A lot of sellers don't know how to find this anyway, from the original payment screen in Paypal (this is what eBay would like to make impossible) and sending an email address in eBay messages is forbidden.

I wonder how eBay expects this to actually happen - by magic I guess.

[albertabrightalberta]

Further - what strikes me as additionally problematic - ebay wants to prevent sellers from having buyers' email addresses, and this can be expected to pose even more problems for even the best-intentioned sellers trying to reimburse a buyer via a stand-alone payment.

When I receive a payment from a buyer, paypal sends me an email letting me know I have money.

I respond to that email and it goes directly to the email address that the buyer has linked to her paypal account. 

Except in rare cases where the buyer has changed her email address, that message goes through and I know I have the correct email address in case it's needed. 

[city*satins]

Interesting!  You know, I've been on eBay since 1998 and not one single time did I ever hit REPLY on my notification email from Paypal.

So I tried what you said - a payment from Mary Smith (not her real name)   hit reply and the TO line said Mary Smith but when I moved my mouse over the name, it opened a pop-up window that displayed her email address.

Never knew that.  That is cool.

I'll bet I'm not in the minority of sellers who don't (didn't) know that.  Thanks for the info.

Anyway...I still don't see how a CS Rep could definitively know whether a seller has or hasn't sent a buyer money outside of the refund of an eBay payment process. Unless there's a SEND SHIPPING REIMBURSEMENT link in the body of the eBay dispute screen.

[lacemaker3]

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@city*satins wrote:

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@lacemaker3 wrote:

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@city*satins wrote:

The eBay CS reps can see the status of payments in your PayPal account, so they can check how much the payment was for, and to whom.

That might have been true at one time (though I'm not certain) while eBay owned Paypal. But that ownership ended in 2015, and I am not aware of CS reps having any access to an eBay member's Paypal account that isn't directly connected to an eBay transaction and unless there's a gateway between a seller's shipping reimbursement to a buyer and the original eBay transaction, I can't see how it would be possible for a CS rep to see this directly.

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My experience relating to this issue (eBay CS reps accessing PayPal information) has all been post-PayPal-split.

Yes, they can access the eBay member's PayPal account information for eBay transactions, even after the PayPal split.

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Well again, even if that is so - unless there is a gateway link in the dispute console between the eBay transaction and the one-time payment for return shipping from the seller to the buyer - an eBay CS rep I don't see how an eBay CS rep would  be able to see this.  As you know, if you've ever used SEND PAYMENT from Paypal, there's no connection to eBay.  

... 

My experience with this was from Dec 2015, so that was 5 months after the split on July 18, 2015. That December, a seller cancelled a purchase and issued a refund as an e-check, which bounced, twice. eBay customer service was able to see the refund and it's status in the seller's PayPal account. This, of course, was related to an eBay transaction.

I can't speak to how the seller would do this now from experience, because my latest seller did not send the return shipping cost. However, the way it was explained to me, the seller would make arrangements with me to determine how much, send it from PayPal, and then provide the PayPal Transaction ID to eBay CS. They would be able to access the payment transaction, and see how much it was for, from whom, and to whom it was sent. I don't see any reason to doubt this, unless there is evidence to the contrary.

[missjen831]

USPS first class package international is trackable to australia, they are an e-delcon country. Its totally safe to return the dress that way especially considering that the seller is responsible for the shipment,

@veechan23sorry didn't mean to abandon your thread! The mods moved your post from the correct board & I just found it here 😞

[missjen831]

....

[missjen831]

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@city*satins wrote:

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@lacemaker3 wrote:

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@albertabrightalberta wrote:
The problem in this case is that the seller is in Australia and the buyer/OP is in the US.

SNAD for international transactions doesn't require that the seller pay return shipping.

---

Actually, yes it does. With a SNAD, international sellers are still required to pay for the return shipping, even though eBay can't provide a prepaid return label in this case.

The seller is expected to send the money for the return shipping to the buyer. eBay gives the seller 5 business days to do this. If they don't either refund, provide a label, or send the money for return shipping, then the buyer can contact eBay and they will refund the full purchase price without requiring the buyer to return the item.

---

I have never been clear how this information is conveyed to eBay during the 5 business day period.  Is the seller offered a passway screen from which to issue a Paypal payment to the buyer or a screen in which to enter a Paypal transaction number or proof of payment to the buyer?    

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The seller has to give ebay the paypal transaction ID number, I believe they can add it to the return details or call in to customer service. If they don't.....buyer gets a refund without returning the dress.

[missjen831]

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@lacemaker3 wrote:

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@city*satins wrote:

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@lacemaker3 wrote:

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@albertabrightalberta wrote:
The problem in this case is that the seller is in Australia and the buyer/OP is in the US.

SNAD for international transactions doesn't require that the seller pay return shipping.

---

Actually, yes it does. With a SNAD, international sellers are still required to pay for the return shipping, even though eBay can't provide a prepaid return label in this case.

The seller is expected to send the money for the return shipping to the buyer. eBay gives the seller 5 business days to do this. If they don't either refund, provide a label, or send the money for return shipping, then the buyer can contact eBay and they will refund the full purchase price without requiring the buyer to return the item.

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I have never been clear how this information is conveyed to eBay during the 5 business day period.  Is the seller offered a passway screen from which to issue a Paypal payment to the buyer or a screen in which to enter a Paypal transaction number or proof of payment to the buyer?    

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I can now confirm this by my own experience. My international return case has  just been concluded, and I have received a full refund, for both the seller's payment and the payment that was made to Pitney Bowes for the GSP shipping. Just as my original payment was divided into two on PayPal, I received two separate refunds that add up to the total amount that I was charged on eBay.

As far as the timing goes, the 5 business days was additional time that was added on to the case, when the seller failed to provide a return shipping label. In this case, the size tag on the dress I received did not match the size that was in the listing description (title, item specifics, or description).

I contacted the seller by message, then had to open a SNAD return case (wrong item sent). The seller sent multiple messages in which she  refused to accept a return. She then accepted the return case on eBay, but then sent two more messages in which she said that was a "malfunction" on the website.

At that point, the case said that I should wait until I received the return label and then send it back. I didn't receive any label, so when the time lime expired (5 business days) I called eBay customer service.

The CS rep reviewed the case, and escalated it for me. She told me that they would contact the seller to make arrangements for the return, by arranging to send me the money for the return shipping. The seller would have 5 business days to do this, and if I didn't receive it by then, I should call back again.The case said that they would respond within 48 hours, but nothing happened while I waited the 5 business days before I called again.

I haven't heard from the seller again during this time. Note that the day you call is "day 0" for these calculations.

The 5 business days expired yesterday, so I called again today. The CS rep reviewed the case again, checked to see if eBay could issue a label themselves (no, they couldn't) and then refunded me. She clearly said that I would not have to send the dress back, and that they would inform the seller about the outcome.

The refund wasn't instantaneous, but I think it was less than 10 minutes before I got an email, and the two refunds were in my PayPal account.

I'm afraid I can't answer from experience how the seller would inform eBay about sending the shipping money, but my understanding is that they would give eBay the PayPal ID for the payment by phone. The eBay CS reps can see the status of payments in your PayPal account, so they can check how much the payment was for, and to whom.

At any rate, this is how it works from the buyer's viewpoint.

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I'm glad this was FINALLY resolved Lace! Took way too long IMHO but it ended in your favor so thats good!

[veechan23]

Hello!  Thanks so so much for your feedback everyone!  I sincerely appreciate everyone's input on this case.  This has been quite frustrating and I take in all the support and all the concerns so I can keep improving my efforts to proceed.

Status update: Will reply back tonight but here's what's going on.

eBay Appeal specialist said they cannot switch to item as described and can only allow me more time to authenticate.  They connected me with PP and advised I open an SNAD claim with PayPal.  

If anyone out there is reading this, do not make the same mistake I did!

eBay ignored every attempt I made to say there were strong indicators the details on the dress were not correct because I could not attach a document of authenticity.  Even though I explained several times this is not possible.  The brand's customer service representative told me on the phone they do not do this.  I have been unsuccessful finding a third party to authenticate and let's say I could, it would be a costly, time-consuming endeavor that would come out of my own pockets and I would not be refunded for this.

I explained that when I selected "doesn't seem authentic" as reason for return, there wasn't an "not as described" option to choose from.  There were about 4 options I could select from.  It might have been "didn't fit" and other reasons that didn't apply but I didn't screenshot it.  I pretended to return something else I bought a while back to see what the options were and now there are about 9 reasons to choose from with an item doesn't match description.   The layout looks completely different from the options available to me when I first filed.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about? 

I did file the return about a day after it delivered, so maybe this is why I didn't have as much options to choose from?  This layout itself is still so confusing to me.  Whether anyone believes me or not, this is my first return and dispute claim with eBay (closed) and now Paypal so I'm still learning heavily and along the way I have been misinformed by both eBay and PPal reps.  I am definitely learning things the hard way...sigh

PPal reps told me I can provide supporting evidence but the case was escaled to awaiting Paypals decision.  The case shows (0) supporting files.  I called and asked if they could write a note on the case that I have supporting evidence to state my SNAD case and to note in the case that I have emailed these photos to their complaints email with case ID in subject line for them to look up because this is what they told me was the only means I had to attach photos.  The seller attached the tracking info, but I'm not trying to fight that item was was not received.

I have a major issue that it was not disclosed as a sample garment.

A sample garment is a prototype pre-production version of a designer dress in its early stages that brands make before final production through their manufacturer.  It is the dress where they are still working out the kinks and are trying to improve it.  The seller did not say it was a sample in her listing.  

If I knew this was a sample, I would have never purchased it because I wanted to have the final dress and not the prototype.  Because the seller said this is a sample dress, this would explain why the details about this Zimmermann dress do not match the official stock photo she provided and other official stock photos of the dress.  Being a sample, this also explains why I originally thought “doesn’t seem authentic” with eBay because several details were incorrect which led me to think this wasn’t a genuine Zimmermann dress.  I don't know if it's a sample or replica I just know it's not as described.

According to PayPal's Purchase protection.  I believe my item is not as described and falls under these reasons.  "Your order arrives, but it's significantly different than it was described.  The item is missing parts or features, and this was not disclosed."

I found the same stock photo in her listing that is of higher and sharper quality.  I made left to right comparison photos with detailed captions explaining how the dress does not match the stock photo in her listing.  I took very clear 3000 pixel photos from different angles to show this and spent hours struggling with an online Photoshop dupe editor to make these clear as day comparisons that key features are missing.  So if this still isn't enough, I have to say I am fighting a losing battle and good luck to you all out there going through something similar.

Aside from the quality issues with the fabric, there are several details that are not as pictured that do show up in the stock photo.  The dress I received does not have a loops on each side of the dress where you pull the waist tie belt through (similar to how jeans have loops to pull a belt through).  My claim is "not as pictured, not disclosed that they were missing."

The stock photo shows the waistline is straight.  I asked the seller prior to paying if the waistline was crooked because I noticed this and she assured me it was straight (I assumed she hung it crookedly on the hanger).   Lo and behold it is significantly crooked.  The waistline is a wreck.  Half of it is straight, then the second half dips inches below where it should be.  My claim is "not as pictured, not in immaculate condition as described."

There are other details I know I can prove with comparison photos with the stock photo.  It's just extremely frustrating that I cannot attach any supporting documents to my SNAD case with PayPal.

[veechan23]

Apologies, 

That was really really long.  Part of me was venting.

Sorry.

[lacemaker3]

@veechan23

I'm really sorry that you are still going through this.

In your PayPal case, I would focus very hard on "Not as described". Don't talk about not authentic, or "prototype" versus regular production. Those could just obfuscate the issue.

If the content tag says Silk, but the fabric is not silk, that makes it Not as Described. Personally, I would do a burn test on a single thread from the woven fabric. If it melts or burns steadily, then it is not silk. Silk is a protein fiber, and in a burn test, it smells like burning hair, and it self-extinguishes (goes out quickly, on its own). It doesn't melt, and it doesn't keep burning steadily. If you try that, and it isn't silk, then focus on that for your Not as Described fact.

I would focus on one, easily established fact that is Not as Described. For my case that I described before, it was the size tag. The description said size L, but the tag said size M. That was all I stated when I escalated the case. Nothing else. The seller made long, impassioned arguments about how she had covered both sizes in her description (which made no sense because she never mentioned M or medium), but I just focused on the simple fact: description said L, the tag said M. I posted a photo of the size tag: M and a screen shot of the Size: L in the item specifics to the case.

The eBay CS reps both asked me "so it didn't fit?" but I did not agree to that. I just repeated my statement of fact: It was not as described because the size tag didn't match the description. Yes, it was too small as a matter of fact, but "didn't fit" is considered to be a buyer's remorse or buyer's mistake reason for a return, and this dress was Not as Described. I stuck to my statement of fact.