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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

    There was a debate recently about the terms used for Drypoint (an artist's printing process). It was asserted by one user here that Drypoint was an Etching as in "Drypoint Etching" and she used this museum quote as "proof" of the definition.

    "and specifically the burr receive ink when the plate is wiped, giving the printed line a distinctive velvety look. Owing to the delicate nature of the burr, drypoint is usually made in small editions, stopping before the burr is crushed by the pressure of the intaglio press. Drypoint is often combined with other etching techniques." (her emphasis not mine)

adding: "See how the Smithsonian identified drypoint as an etching technique?"

    Now, she must have spent hours googling for a museum who might confirm her misguided notion that a drypoint is an etching, because for the most part, museums usually get it right.

    But considering the confusing language used in her "proof" I can understand why this user also claimed:

 

 "Odd, the Tate, Smithsonian, and many, many other major museums all use the same description that I have used over the years when they have a drypoint in their collection."

     Adding:


"I'm going to stick with the Smithsonian (sic) and all the other museums of the world on this and not what I'm reading here."

    Time will tell if that statement is true or not.

    In any event, I tried to explain the language used in her "proof" quote, but I was shut down with "Everything I just read was 'lost in translation'."

    And later it came up (out of context) in other Discussion threads.

"pixzee, this got me to thinking, and as you know so much about art, do you know the difference between an etching and a dry point etching? Is it wet ink and dry ink? How does that work? ...any help you can provide to help clear this mystery up would be appreciated."

"... among other things you have stated (like dry point)..."

    It started to look a little like harassment, but I'm sure it was meant as good natured ribbing wink

    I did a little googling, too, and that quote doesn't exist at any of the Smithsonian Museums. When I asked about it, she was unable to tell me where she found the mystery quote.  I was finally able to find the exact phrase at the Tate Museum's definition of drypoint. (The Tate holds the National Collection of the UK, perhaps that's why she confused it with the Smithsonian?)

 

Tate.original.JPG
    (I added a yellow highlight, and the link above leads to a Google cache of the Tate's original Description of Drypoint)

    The Tate takes information like this very seriously and what a coincidence, I happen to know someone there. I wrote to my friend, Louise, who still works in the conservation and collections department at the Tate:

    "I got into quite a heated online argument over a misunderstanding of terms used on your site for drypoint. I wonder if you could pass this email onto the department that deals with this sort of thing...

    "The final line in the paragraph reads "Drypoint is often combined with other etching techniques." and the meaning of that sentence was taken to be that drypoint is a type of etching process.

    "Wouldn't it be more accurate to write: "Drypoint is often combined with other intaglio techniques, such as etching."

    We wrote back and forth about personal things, then I got this email just today.

louise.jpg



"I can confirm your notice of the 'Drypoint' definition/glossary being misleading has been reviewed where agreement for its revision shall be undertaken for improved clarity."

    And later I received a message from Lily who works in the curatorial research department.
lily1.jpg
 

"Thank you for your feedback, which is indeed accurate. This will be updated later today."

    Which it has been!

 

    Screen capture of the current (revised) page at the Tate where the original misleading information was quoted.

Tate.revised.jpg

Message 1 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

I'm not sure I entirely understand this controversy. You both have a very clear knowledge of what the drypoint process involves, so there doesn't seem to be any great factual dispute. The argument is over the use of a word. Personally I have always associated "etching" with the eating away of a surface by an acid, mainly because I used to polish and etch metallurgical samples as a student. Since there is no acid involved in the drypoint process, I think you are probably correct from a strictly etymological standpoint. But I think you may be missing the fact that technical misnomers become common usage on a regular basis, even among professionals. To take one example: would you consider it incorrect or misleading to use the term "nickel silver" to refer to an alloy without any silver content?

Message 2 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@argon38wrote:

. Would you consider it incorrect or misleading to use the term "nickel silver" to refer to an alloy without any silver content?


Not in the least, It was me who agreed that  "drypoint etching" is an  etymological, technical misnomer.

 

But to assert that a drypoint is an actual etching (which is what the disagreement was) because of the misnomer "drypoint etching", is like asserting  that nickel (Ni on the periodic table) is the same as silver (Ag on the periodic table), or that "nickel silver" is in fact real silver (Ag).

Message 3 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

Whatever you wrote was totally lost on me as I didn't read it... "he hastily banged out electronic missives", but just from the length of it, I'm made aware that you may not be having much fun in the antiques world like the rest of us are. I hope you feel better.

Message 4 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

Controversies over "correct" usage can go on forever. Sometimes it is good to know when to draw a line. tired_face

 

 P.S. Applies to both parties grinning

Message 5 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

I appreciate that which is why I didn't read said missive. I'll make up for it though, I'm taking photos of a 17th cent zinger I'll post later.

Message 6 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@sonomabarn67 wrote:

I'll make up for it though, I'm taking photos of a 17th cent zinger I'll post later.


Sounds intriguing... looking forward to that one.

Message 7 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@argon38wrote:

Controversies over "correct" usage can go on forever.

Sorry, but I hate to think you're trying to gaslight me.

 

I was there, in the conversation. It was not about "usage", never. As the quotes I provided show, it was about a misguided belief that a drypoint is an etching, based on a poorly worded definition by the Tate, which I have helped to correct.

 

People come to these boards looking for information about the artist's prints they have found. I hate to see them mislead. That's all.

 

But if you're just trying to help someone save face, that is noble of you.

Message 8 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@pixzee wrote:

It was not about "usage", never.

But the phrase  "drypoint etching" clearly is in use. A few random examples:

 

https://www.lucygell.com/about-1/the-printmaking-process/dry-point-etching/

 

https://www.zhibit.org/msmith318/drypoint-etching

 

https://www.ardingtonschool.com/store/p314/Drypoint_Etching_Techniques_4th_July_2018.html

 

To my mind, there comes a point when a theoretically "incorrect" phrase becomes so widespread among intelligent people involved in a trade or profession that it no longer makes sense to castigate it as an error. These people understand the drypoint technique very well. If they choose to call it "etching" then it's down to evolving usage of the term; it isn't because they misunderstand the process.

Message 9 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

@pixzee, I agree with you.

 

When you are talking about printmaking techniques, Intaglio printmaking means you create an image on a metal plate, ink it, and run it through a pressure printing press to produce each print. FYI, the "g" in intaglio is silent.

 

There are two kinds of Intaglio prints: etching and engraving.

 

Etching means that an acid bath is used to create the image in the plate. A resist of some kind is used to protect some parts of the plate, and the areas where you want a line or mark in the print are exposed to the acid.

 

Engraving means that mechanical* means are used to create the image in the plate.

 

- drypoint is one kind of engraving, where the marks on the plate are created by hand, using a sharp stylus that raises a burr along the lines. After the plate is inked and run through the press, the burr creates a distinctive blur or haze along the line, which is the key factor of a drypoint (it looks a bit like flow-blue in ceramics, but more subtle). As noted, the burr is delicate, and wears down quickly under the pressure of the printing press, so drypoint engravings can only be produced in small runs.

 

The drypoint haze should not be confused with plate haze, which results from not completely wiping the plate after inking it. Some artists use plate haze deliberately to get the effect they desire for the print.

 

In other kinds of engraving, the marks are produced by other mechanical* means (as opposed to acid), and/or  the burr is polished off to produce a different effect and allow more prints to be produced before the plate is worn out.

 

Source: a course in Intaglio Printmaking at University. It was also explained in the reference books that I bought for that course.

 

* "Mechanical" does not necessarily refer to the use of a machine, it is just used here to describe marks that are made by a physical process as opposed to using acid to etch the metal.

 

 

Message 10 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

Can't wait to see something that will qualify as truly "breaking news". I have something from the 19th century I thought about sharing, but it's almost scary to start a thread anymore.
Message 11 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.

 


@argon38wrote:

@pixzee wrote:

It was not about "usage", never.

But the phrase  "drypoint etching" clearly is in use. ...To my mind, there comes a point when a theoretically "incorrect" phrase becomes ....

Again, I hate to think you're trying to gaslight me. And I hate to repeat myself but...

  the original conversation was never, negative, no, not about "usage", never. 

 

Trying to suggest that this is about "theoretical" or "incorrect" usage  is circumventing the point. A "drypoint etching" is not an  etching. "nickle silver" is not real silver.  I feel a responsibility to make that distinction clear. And, apparently so does the Tate, but not you. Why is that?

Message 12 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@mountaingigiwrote:
Can't wait to see something that will qualify as truly "breaking news".

In some cultures, wishing that someone has an exciting life is considered a curse.

Message 13 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@pixzee wrote:
A "drypoint etching" is not an  etching. "nickle silver" is not real silver.  I feel a responsibility to make that distinction clear. And, apparently so does the Tate, but not you. Why is that?

If there are people out there who think that making a drypoint involves the use of acid, they are factually mistaken and ought to be corrected. But nobody here has suggested this, so far as I am aware. As I understood it, the controversy between yourself and sonomabarn was whether a drypoint could be legitimately be called a form of etching. It seems to me that the phrase "drypoint etching" is sufficiently widespread to make it an unresolvable argument.

Message 14 of 23
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Breaking News! Drypoint is not an Etching. But we already knew that.


@pixzeewrote:

@argon38wrote:

Controversies over "correct" usage can go on forever.


 

People come to these boards looking for information...  I hate to see them mislead. That's all.

 

 


No one gives bad information intentionally, but we all do.  We're just a bunch of unpaid research assistants, and sometimes we get things wrong.   I've eaten many a slice of that pie you're offering.

Usually, we reply to a thread because we know from personal experience what something is although, of course, we sometimes learn we've been wrong for years about X.  Normally, when we use the web to find answers we're inordinately conscientious, but at time we let confirmation bias reign.

The point, to me and for me, is that I don't have to be right.  No OP should take one person's word as final.  We provide ideas and, often, some citations so OP can make the final decision.  I don't even want the last word. 

The sad truth about the majority of the OPs:  They never return to see the answers.  They do but will ignore the answers, choosing to list according to their fantasies.  They are posting only what's-it-and-what's-it-worth-and-make-it-snappy and have no interest in one speck beyond that.

This is not a problem for me, as I mess around here largely for my own sake:  I look for interesting little puzzles as try to solve -- to entertain myself, to learn, and as one kind of mental exercise for my aging brain.   Well, that and to try to keep argon in line.

 

Message 15 of 23
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