eBay

lost-lizard-trading-company · ‎12-12-2018

A few months ago I found an older (early 1960s) paperback book with Stephen Hawking's signature in the location where one normally places their name in a book. I had the item positively authenticated as genuine through a British authenticator and listed it on eBay. eBay promptly removed the listing saying that the authenticator was not valid -- ie not on their approved list. At additional cost I sent it to one of the eBay approved authenticators (J A Spence) which inlcuded Hawking in their list of signatures they could confirm. After examining the book for a month, they concluded that their examination was inconclusive. They could neither confirm the signature as genuine nor deny that it. Because it is from a time period prior to Hawking's fame there are few signature exemplars. It is also a signature prior to the ravages of his disease. Although I asked for their suggestions, none are forthcoming.

Does anyone have recommendations--groups, experts, collectors--for authenticating an early Stephen Hawking signature (pre-ALS)?

maxine*j · ‎12-13-2018

When my books were sold on eBay, just a few years back, there was no requirement to have a professional authentication of signatures. Are you positive that is required now, if you list in the Books category?

I've just looked at a few dozen listings for signed contemporary books (such as yours) and I don't see any indication in any of the listings that the signatures have been professionally authenticated (or autrhenticated at all, for that matter.)

Can you tell me exactly how you listed it? NOT that you can necessarily re-list, no matter what, because eBay may seriously punish you if you do, now that they have taken an interest. But if you don't mind satisfying my curiosity, I'd appreciate it.

My books were offered with a lifetime guarantee. If an owner ever finds a signature to be inauthenticate, no matter how many years down the road, a full refund will be made. So far, so good.

ohnojoey · ‎12-13-2018

I think maybe someone reported the listing, which is often the case, and why some items are removed yet many others remain listed.

Ebay says in their Autographed items policy overview

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/autographed-items-policy?id=4283

"We investigate concerns from our members in regard to autographs..."

and

"Make sure your listing follows these guidelines. If it doesn't, it may be removed, and you may be subject to a range of other actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account."

Of course, there are hundreds of thousands of autograph/signatures for sale on ebay that are in violation of ebay's own definition of autographed items policy. I wonder if signed books are an exception, but apparently not.

When members who are competitors, vindictive, or just "concerned" complain, the listing gets attention and probably pulled.

For one example out of dozens...CBD oil is banned for sale by ebay as of this year, and occasionally someone posts that their listing was removed and warnings sent or they were banned, while thousands of other CBD oil products are not pulled and remain for sale. This is just one of many examples of ebay's selective enforcement.

yankeebob1951 · ‎12-13-2018

Maybe you could google around to find sold items related to Dr Hawking & contact the auction houses involved for advice.

maxine*j · ‎12-13-2018

Well, that's pretty weird. I can remember when all this began, with California passing a law relating to autographed sports cards, memorabilia, etc., and eBay following suit. California rescinded the requirement for booksellers, and I thought eBay did, too. What a mess.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/bookselling/article/75118-california-resc...

Some (not all or even most) of the autographs in my books had me as a guarantor, if it came to that. I mean, I knew the author, who sent it to me signed, or it was signed in front of me. Now even that wouldn't be good enough, I guess. Oh, my.

argon38 · ‎12-13-2018

@lost-lizard-trading-company wrote:
eBay promptly removed the listing saying that the authenticator was not valid -- ie not on their approved list.

eBay has a list of autograph authenticators whom they recommend, but I wasn't aware that there was any prohibition on using a different authentication service, provided they are reputable. However, they do have what is effectively a banned list:

Not allowed

Autographed items with COAs and LOAs, or references to COAs and LOAs from the following people or organizations:
- ACE Authentic
- Coach's Corner Sports Auctions LLC
- Christopher L. Morales
- CSC Collectibles
- Donald Frangipani
- Forensic Document Services
- Hollywood Dreams
- J. DiMaggio Co. / J. DiMaggio Company
- Legends Sports Memorabilia
- Nathan's Autographs / N.E. Autographs
- Nicholas Burczyk
- Pro Sports / Pro Sports Memorabilia
- Rare and Signed.com
- Robert Prouty
- R.R.'s Sports Cards & Collectibles
- SCAA / Front Page Art / Angelo Marino
- Slamdunk Sportscards & Memorabilia
- Sports Alley Memorabilia
- Sports Management Group
- Stan's Sports / Stans Sports Memorabilia
- TTA Authentic (formerly STAT Authentic)
- Universal Memorabilia
- USA Authentics

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/autographed-items-policy?id=4283

Was your first authenticator one of those on this list? If not, the decision to pull the listing seems a little puzzling.

argon38 · ‎12-13-2018

@ohnojoey wrote:
I think maybe someone reported the listing, which is often the case, and why some items are removed yet many others remain listed.

Reported for what, though? I would like to know precisely what the violation was here. Is it really prohibited to use an autograph authenticator who isn't expressly mentioned on this list?

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/policerelated-items-policy?id=4659

eBay itself describes it as a "partial list", so I can't see that there's any obligation involved.

ohnojoey · ‎12-13-2018

@argon38 wrote:
@ohnojoey wrote:
I think maybe someone reported the listing, which is often the case, and why some items are removed yet many others remain listed.
Reported for what, though? I would like to know precisely what the violation was here. Is it really prohibited to use an autograph authenticator who isn't expressly mentioned on this list?

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/policerelated-items-policy?id=4659

eBay itself describes it as a "partial list", so I can't see that there's any obligation involved.

I have the same questions.

I don't know if it was"reported" for sure, I think it's very likely to be reported by Gladys Kravitz,

and if she did, I believe they can cite from a menu of reasons, true or not, then it gets someone's or something's attention. Then who is the expert at ebay to make a decision to remove or not? Probably no expert at all, but erring on the side of caution in ebay's interest.

Ebay's policies are sometimes ambiguous and convoluted, in my opinion.

On one hand, ebay cites "Recommended authentication and grading companies" but recommended doesn't read to me as required. And is there a statement from ebay that answers your great question of "Is it really prohibited to use an autograph authenticator who isn't expressly mentioned on this list?" I don't see any statement to that effect.

lost-lizard-trading-company, can you tell us if the authenticator was listed in the listing and if, as argon suggested, was just another authenticator but not on the Not allowed list?

maxine*j · ‎12-13-2018

I misread your original post. So the book is not one authored by Stephen Hawking (if it's a 1960s paperback) but one he owned, during his student years, which means you didn't list it in a Books category. So my comments are irrelevant. Sorry.

argon38 · ‎12-13-2018

@maxine*j wrote:
I misread your original post. So the book is not one authored by Stephen Hawking (if it's a 1960s paperback) but one he owned, during his student years

It would be interesting to see a photo of it, just out of curiosity.

lost-lizard-trading-company · ‎12-13-2018

Thanks for all the comments. Rare and Signed was my first authenticator choice based on British location. That was before I read eBay's authentication requirements. I'm not sure what category I placed the listing in since the listing was vaporized without a trace rather quickly. However, based on my title, probably in autographs of some type rather than books. Interesting to note, St Thomas Aquinas was an interest of Hawking; Hawking used different types of "S"'s in his cursive writing and in later life he used a printed style S when writing "Stephen". Yes, I am looking into auction houses and also the Hawking Foundation.

The following is eBay's message to me. I contacted eBay customer service and got little information other than DO NOT list it again.

Your listing has been removed: Trademark Violation - Unauthorized Item

Hello lost-lizard-trading-company,

After reviewing your eBay account, we've taken the following action:
- Listings have been removed. A list of items that were removed can be viewed at the bottom of this message.
- We have credited all associated fees except for the final value fee for your listing(s).
The listing or product that was removed appeared to violate eBay policy. Please remember that you are responsible for the quality and authenticity of the products that you offer on eBay. It is against eBay policy to sell any counterfeit items.

For more information please see our Replica, counterfeit items, and unauthorized copies policy:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

If you have more questions, contact our policy experts:
http://ocsnext.ebay.com/ocs/cusr?query=1336&=PTB1208

Please be sure your current and future listings follow these guidelines, keeping in mind that additional violations could result in the suspension of your account.

Here are the listings that were removed:
323521495370 - Early STEPHEN HAWKING SIGNATURE Autograph Circa 1960 Original Authenticated

We appreciate your cooperation.

Thanks,

eBay

sonomabarn67 · ‎12-13-2018

Maybe it was as simple as that Hawking didn't write the book therefore,the signature and author didn't line up. Keep in mind that the staff at ebay does not have the many years of experience we all do to make a proper call. It may have been caught by a robot and then reviewed by an eBay genius.

lost-lizard-trading-company · ‎12-13-2018

I think the trigger was that I used RareandSigned not knowing that eBay had a banned authenticator list.

sonomabarn67 · ‎12-13-2018

Also, Hawkings sig looks just like millions of pre/post teen boy sigs as everyone was trying to find an identity with their sig during those same years. Looks just like mine at that age!

yankeebob1951 · ‎12-13-2018

-Thanks for sharing the additional information & pix...

-At 1st glance I'm intrigued by what looks like " 495-5332 Ruth Ann Platt" written at the bottom of the page...could be useful to establish some further provenance as you continue your research...did a flirtacious young Hawking convince Ms Platt to write her name & number in a handy paperback he happened to be carrying?...were they study buddies setting up some further discussion on some point in the book?....or was Platt just another owner of the book...or...???