Buyer has refund and item refuses to pay me back w/o invoice which I can't produce.

[kut11]

Item number 265888397139 sold to buyer on September 21, shipped next day 9-22 via UPS 1Z14V5340329422467. Around 9-26 UPS had a hiccup, and the package went missing. Within a day of this occurrence the buyer contacted me claiming the package was supposed to be delivered and was not, on his own he called UPS and they told him to contact the sender (me) to report it lost. I told buyer I would follow up and did so trigging a lost item search by UPS on 9-28. I informed buyer I filed a claim with UPS and asked him to wait another 4 days to see if the item turned up and was delivered. He agreed. After 4 days the buyer asked for a refund, I complied and issued refund through eBay for 39.62 on 10/04.  I then asked buyer to do the right thing and to contact me if the package was subsequently delivered. On 10-17 I noticed the package was delivered to the buyer on 10/12 but he hadn't contacted me. I contacted buyer on the 17th requesting the item back or the money back. And of course, he claimed he was currently out of town on work related business and when he returned home on 10/19, he would see if he got the package. He added to send him an invoice. I tried to send an invoice and found it can't be done after a refund, so instead I sent a very detailed message with all the pertinent information and dates requesting he send payment to my PayPal account. I also sent a "request funds" through PayPal. He refuses to send payment claiming what I request is in violation of eBay rules. (Well, not a bad excuse for someone who signed on eBay in January 22. with 15 FB's).  I contacted eBay went through this whole scenario they claimed there wasn't much they could do but would send it up to the next level for investigation and it would take about 7 days. When Ebay answered the phone, they said thank you for your loyalty of 22 years, in closing with eBay I mentioned my loyalty time and asked them to contrast it to this buyer who only took 6 months to steal from a long-time member. 

Anyone have another solution on this incident?

[this*old*attic]

Purely hypothetical, but I’m not sure that’s true. OP mentioned some kind of communication to the effect of letting him know if it ended up arriving, plus the refund itself was based on the assumption of a lost package. 

[buyselljack2016]

Small claims court (or Judge Judy) may disagree about the legality. This isn't one of those unsolicited items arriving at someone's doorstep. This was a transaction requested buy the buyer, that by eBay policy, had to be refunded, and you feel the buyer has now been "gifted" the item by the seller.

The term seller refunded voluntarily is a pretty loose term here because , as we all know, by eBay policy, the seller must refunded voluntarily , or eBay will do it for them, and also punish them.

[albertabrightalberta]

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@kut11 wrote:

Hi, thanks for the response, you're a forward-thinking person. However, the buyer today claims he talked to eBay this morning 10-22 and they told him he has no obligation to pay. At least that is what he is now claiming.

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This is true. Legally, you've refunded and he's not obligated to repay. Morally, it'd be on him to do the right thing. 

[albertabrightalberta]

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@buyselljack2016 wrote:

@kut11 

As in this case, once a transaction goes south, and eBay is done with it, payment can be requested/made via PP.

Not a violation of eBay policy. Even a recommended solution from ebay "blues".

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How would this be done without the seller knowing the buyer's email address, no longer disclosed by ebay?

[this*old*attic]

Since the buyer is asking for an invoice, one assumes he would give it - but as we all see, looks like the buyer is happy to get a free item.

[farmalljr]

Judge Judy is NOT a court of law. She is an arbitrator that decides cases however she want to, regardless of law. 

If the seller refunded VOLUNTARILY, then there is nothing the seller can do. Legally or otherwise. Reread the TOS to use ebay. The seller does so voluntarily, there is no going back after the buyer. Contractually, you gave up that right. Law is a contract. If we just start making our own rules as we go along, then contracts mean nothing and neither does the law. 

Refunded voluntarily, is NOT a lose term. It has a definition. There is an accurate description to it. And the OP never mentions a case being opened. Only that the buyer contacted them about the shipment. So, YES, it was voluntary. No mentions at all about a case or eBay forcing a refund. 

[deltilogical]

IN reply to the original post, the ebay seller is unable to send a simple invoice to a customer for an item through Ebay, nor can we "reactivate" a listing we're forced to refund by ebay rules.   

With respect to farmalljr saying the refund is voluntary, isn't it really made "under duress"?  Because if the Seller doesn't do it "voluntarily"  ebay will do the refund anyway and the seller incurs a demerit?   

I think Ebay user's refund requests should be public info, alongside their feedback score and profile.   And Seller's should be able to block based on absolute numbers of refunds or a percent.  There is no transparency whatseover, it is not very good. 

[this*old*attic]

Neither is Ebay the law. Through a dispute or otherwise, refund was given on the contingency the item hadn’t arrived (to make buyer whole). Letting OP know if it arrived was part of the discussion. It was a voluntary agreement but that doesn’t make the item a gift. There were clear understanding s and enough of a meeting of the minds that buyer wanted a new invoice (way to remit payment) sent. His/her weird concepts and subsequent wiggle out of responsibility doesn’t change the original agreement or intent. Which is all moot because no one is going to small claims court states away from where they live, and collecting a win is never a done deal but an entire secondary process if the loser ignores the judgement against them.

[sprinkles91]

from now on, i would highly suggest you not refund them out of kindness..instead wait for the case & ebay will tell them to wait until the latest expected delivery date. if the utem is still in transit, which it was, ebay still tells them to wait. the system closes the case as soon as the tracking says delivered, & this is often what happens it just takes a spare week now sometimes as i experince every month! esp. w ups.

both usps and ups are having longer than expected transit times, & it says so right on their site in bulletin form.

they dont have to refund you unfortunately & i really wish i could give you a way to fight this, but you refunded them because they where impatient..this is a hard lesson, & im not suggesting this, but i will mention because i can that unless you want to file a chargeback somehow, or report This via paypal? im not sure..my answer is that they have no obligation to pay you back after youve refunded them,and wont & WILL put you off out of guilt then ghost you because ebay does in fact tell the buyer that unfortunately..im so sorry☮️

[sprinkles91]

@kut11 

but yeah, thats technically what you should tell the buyer is to wait a spare buisness week right now for transit delays through the ups & usps, that its out of your control & they warn of this on both of  their sites. make them aware of that in your listing as well "most deliveries arrive within so many standard business days, but sometimes they may take longer depending on the influx of packages & limited staff from the ups/usps".

"the ups is having longer than usual transit delays" etc.basically everything ups emails you about or has plastered on their sites. its mostly because of the current economy crisis, c-vid & a mass shortage in staff. i would also think about adding a few "lost in transit" days to your shipping times for the moment being..i myself would do a total of 10 working days just to save my hiney, if i still sold..lol💖

[hunkadinka]

My reply might only be appreciated by the seller and I don't care if you disagree with it, I feel for this seller. None of you sellers sell on ebay 'cause you got nothing better to do, you're here to try to make a profit. Your profit is dependent on ebay's much-hyped protection. That protection failed this seller and ebay should be ashamed that it failed to protect him (I'm assuming a male seller but it doesn't matter.) ebay needs to spend some of our fees money and consider their really limited protection policy and tptb should vote to come up with a real seller protection policy that will take this case as precedent and, as long as the seller can provide the transaction documentation, should frorce the crooked buyer to refund or lose his/her ebay account. Bottom line, ebay is a coward. Some of ebay's policies are questionable and should be allowed to be questioned legally. This seller could win, if I was the judge!

[farmalljr]

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@deltilogical wrote:

IN reply to the original post, the ebay seller is unable to send a simple invoice to a customer for an item through Ebay, nor can we "reactivate" a listing we're forced to refund by ebay rules.   

With respect to farmalljr saying the refund is voluntary, isn't it really made "under duress"?  Because if the Seller doesn't do it "voluntarily"  ebay will do the refund anyway and the seller incurs a demerit?   

I think Ebay user's refund requests should be public info, alongside their feedback score and profile.   And Seller's should be able to block based on absolute numbers of refunds or a percent.  There is no transparency whatseover, it is not very good. 

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While I may agree with you how it SHOULD be, its not that way.

No, there was no "duress" especially since no case were opened. There was no mention of a REFUND before a CASE CLOSED. it was a voluntary act to keep a buyer happy. Not faulting the seller for trying to keep a buyer happy and avoiding a case, but this is the COST of doing so outside the eBay rules. 

Like it or not, we all agree to the TOS. I don't like it either a lot of the time. But this IS the reality of the situation. If you don't like the rules, you don't have to buy or sell here. You are free to contact eBay and demand rule changes, but eBay is free to ignore you too.

[farmalljr]

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@this*old*attic wrote:

Neither is Ebay the law. Through a dispute or otherwise, refund was given on the contingency the item hadn’t arrived (to make buyer whole). Letting OP know if it arrived was part of the discussion. It was a voluntary agreement but that doesn’t make the item a gift. There were clear understanding s and enough of a meeting of the minds that buyer wanted a new invoice (way to remit payment) sent. His/her weird concepts and subsequent wiggle out of responsibility doesn’t change the original agreement or intent. Which is all moot because no one is going to small claims court states away from where they live, and collecting a win is never a done deal but an entire secondary process if the loser ignores the judgement against them.

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Never said eBay is the law. The CONTRACT is the law. Courts enforce contracts, not whims. As we all know, the TOS supersede whatever VERBAL agreements buyers and sellers make. 

Like it or not, we all agree to the TOS. I don't like it either a lot of the time. But this IS the reality of the situation. If you don't like the rules, you don't have to buy or sell here. You are free to contact eBay and demand rule changes, but eBay is free to ignore you too.

For the record I am NOT condoning the actions of the buyer. Again, the item SHOULD have been sent back to the seller at the seller's expense OR repayment for it. But legally, the buyer is under NO obligation. And let's get something out in the air too. Why didn't the seller RECALL the package after they refunded the buyer? The seller would have had the opportunity to at least get their item back.  You don't think if that was presented in court, that would not cause the seller to lose the case? It sure would have. 

[gamersbaystore]

Nonsense. ebay's terms of service do not override the laws of this nation. The OP refunded because they thought the item was lost. Once it was delivered, the buyer then has a legal obligation to pay, otherwise its theft, specifically mail fraud.

I give them a chance to repay or send the item back. If they refuse, I report them for mail fraud.

The postal service will go after the buyers too if they get enough complaints. I have received restitution checks from buyers multiple times over the years, all the result of those buyers being charged and convicted by the postal service.

This is also why you don't use garbage services like UPS, you use USPS because of the added legal protections. USPS has broad authority to charge people with crimes, UPS does not.

USPS could care less what ebay's policies are.

[chrisandfrankplus4]

I think that it's tragic that sellers seem to be getting screwed over so often on E-bay now.  I think that sometimes seeking other options (outside E-bay ) may be necessary.  This person committed theft - ebay or no ebay - it's theft.  I don't know how to advise you because it all boils down to the E bay decision making process and as of today it seems to sway in favor of the buyer, regardless of documentation.