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Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

I have accepted the challenge to post this topic.

It was suggested that a Fire Truck be on standby.

I live in a remote location with a volunteer Fire Service...however here we are...

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Message 1 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?


@omgitlightsup wrote:

I remember when the way to prevent shilling on eBay was to be honest and fair. And I know they cracked down on it after a while.. and I could swear that for a time, they warned us that if we tried to do it, their high-tech shill-detector algorithm would bust us for it.

 

I really don't know how sophisticated it is or how well it works because I've never shilled on an auction. I do know that I've sold items to friends of mine and never been busted for it. It seemed for a while in the mid 2000's that eBay was trying to tell us our friends weren't allowed to interact with us here, and they sort of reeled back that attitude.

 

I believe you if you say it works poorly.. but I still bet you they spent a ton of money on it!

 

 

 


ke4fpb,

 

I do NOT mean to be disrespectful to you with my reply post. PLEASE keep this in mind.

 

No where have I even intimated that [eBay's shill detection algorithms] "work poorly". Being excruciatingly mindful of the choice of exacting words so a not to receive unwanted "contact" from Lithium, I wrote that the software that you believe eBay spent a ton of money on, is "inadequate".

 

To expound on "inadequate", the "shill detection algorithms" are only as effective as its ability (or capability) to recognize SHILL bidding.  I am not a software programmer or engineer but I can readily see SHILL bidding, especially when it is so painfully obvious, when I first know exactly how eBay's proxy bidding system works and how the price level is affected due to the interaction of the (proxy) bids that are in effect.

 

Because of my knowledge of how eBay's proxy bidding system actually works from long ago, I can recognize SHILL bidding by analyzing the bid history page of the individual auction and scrutinizing what was actually recorded on that page. From this and, if necessary, I can look for other clues that may confirm my findings even though I do not have any access whatsoever to the ISP numbers of the users' computers. I don't need ISP numbers of users' computers to form my opinion that the auction was SHILLED.

 

IF the software engineer or programmer does not have the knowledge of exactly how eBay's proxy bidding system works and therefore, can not possibly recognize activity that is representative of SHILL bidding, the software that is created is to detect SHILLING is of limited utility.

 

Being mindful of Lithium, I will use an analogy and euphemisms to explain. IF a human being that is color blind and can not see the color "green", this human being would not be able to write software to recognize the color "green". So, if this human being is color blind and can not see "green", this human being could not possibly write software to recognize the color "green" and therefore any software that this human being writes purportedly able to recognize the color "green" would be "inadequate" from my (at-arms-length) observations.

 

Back in 2005, when I reported a bunch of auctions that I suspected were SHILLED, I wrote detailed reports to eBay Trust & Safety with my complete and detailed explanations/findings to support my position. After receiving a KMM number(s) to acknowledge eBay receiving my report(s), I left it up to eBay to have its human investigators go through my report. eBay did not reveal the results of their investigations to me. All I did was sit and watch for the suspected user IDs to be NARUed by eBay.

 

In March of this year, I used eBay's present system to report suspected shill bidding in more than 200 (that is two HUNDRED) auctions. There was NO room for me to provide my findings to explain exactly why I believe the auctions where SHILLED. Because I did not see ANY suspected shill bidding IDs get NARUed even though the evidence was present (as it was in 2005), I concluded that eBay's "software" was "inadequate" and if not "inadequate", eBay has turned a BLIND EYE towards SHILLING.

 

Trinton has, in his own words, stated in your thread, that he thinks soft closes are "an amazing idea". Trinton has not stated his reason(s) why he thinks soft closes are "an amazing idea".

 

I have taken my valuable time and have gone to great lengths (due to being excruciatingly mindful of Lithium) to express exactly why I do not think soft closes are "an amazing idea".

 

I believe it would be considerably more interesting to readers/posters to see Trinton's (exact) reason or reasons why he believes soft closes are "an amazing idea" especially given that eBay has been existence for more than two decades and as far as I am aware, eBay has never once implemented soft closes on its platform for auctions strictly conducted only within its site and not in conjunction with an Auction House.

 

I am going to leave this matter at that since I have answered your questions at length whereas Trinton has not even stated his reason or reasons as far as I have seen to support his position on the matter of soft closes.

 

< Leaving the forum and shaking my head >

Godzilla_Goose

Message 76 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

Can somebody please check this out...

 

If you wanted to check-out another bidder, you'd click on the bids, and be taken to BID HISTORY, you would then click on the encrypted ID of a bidder, and be taken to that bidders BID HISTORY:ID....and this is where it gets strange.

 

I have an auction of interest to me, and checked (as above) the only 2 bidders. Obviously you expect to see (for example) a***b AS a***b in BOTH?

 

Well, I NOW find the "bidder" has TWO encrypted ID's...1 in Bid History, and another in Bid History:ID  

I then went to a number of auctions in my watch list, and check out a few other auctions, and found the same thing...ALL bidders NOW have 2 encrypted ID's.

 

Is this a glitch or new policy eBay?

 

 

Message 77 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

you MADE me phone em, "I didn't wanna do it  I didn't wanna do it"

Yes, I phoned, well, got them to phone me.

 

AH yes, I can't BEGIN to tell yer how good it felt to receive that call..."When VALUED customer is on the line, press 1"

Word of warning people...NEVER make a call to eBay CS, with anything LESS than an empty bladder, given the risk of...EXTREME laughter? 

 

The reason for the call?

I asked if eBay have had a change of policy with regard to encryption of bidders ID's...and yer know what?, they HAVE.

 

Some DUMB S.O.A.B (who may well have received a BONUS fer this brainstorm) decided it would be a good idea to encrypt the encrypted ID of a bidder, SO

If you wanna check the bid history of the "opposition" B4 you "jump in"... (at any stage wink )  you "click" on the bid, are taken to "bid history", where you click on the ALREADY encrypted ID of a bidder, and are taken to that bidders "bid history ID".

Here you can STILL see his/her feedback score...amount of bids placed in the past 30 days, % of bids placed with the SAME seller, and number of items bid on,  and retraction history etc..etc, but NOW you will notice that eBay have encrypted the already encrypted bidders ID...WHY?

 

Oh boy, this is gonna be fun...not, as the "eBay can do no wrong" brigade CHARGE to their defence, with reasons why it' a "good thing", or at least "not an issue"

WELL,?...ready when you are.

 

sleeping  

Message 78 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

 

If you have a procedural method for identifying shill bidding, one which relies on comparing pieces of data against one another, it can most definitely be coded. Maybe eBay hasn't hit on your method yet. But it would most certainly be within the realm of possibility for a browser plug-in if all you need is the data given to you by eBay.

 

 

I think the green example is a little oversimplified. A colorblind programmer would be able to do what you describe effortlessly. But it does kind of illustrate part of my point. The word "green" is explicitly defined, in and out of the world of computer science. A technician who's physically unable to see the color green can google what green is, and he can still use instruments that detect it. A computer programmer who is fairly confident that a JPG honestly represents a scene's colors can trivially sort out the green pixels with only a few lines of code, and be certain of the results without normal color vision.

 

If you replace "green" with "dark matter," "ghosts," or "shill bidders" you expose more subtle aspects of the problem. What is a shill bid or bidder? What are its attributes that distinguish it from other bids? What calculations or comparisons does a user need to do to measure those attributes? Stuff like that. If you can't pin down the definition of what you want to catch, you can't make a net to catch it.

 

One should also be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater... in other words, if extended time auctions are an amazing idea but for the actions of shill bidders, then why not solve both problems independently? If you could get shills out of the picture, it sounds like everyone would be on board with extended time auctions. And you do seem to believe there's a way to do it.

 

I'd also like to make an observation here about eBay's bidding psychology. I haven't bid on an auction in a long time, and last night I placed a bid for something and couldn't help but laugh. As soon as I placed the bid, eBay immediately presented me with a popup window that said, "congratulations! You're the first bidder. Want to increase your chance of winning? Raise your max bid." There was a convenient entry field and a new bid button right there.

 

eBay encourages you to compete with yourself. You cannot convince me that eBay's culture is solidly grounded in the "place your max bid once and for all" camp, or that it's widely accepted that bidding late is the way you win items. When sellers come in here puzzled and ask, "why does the same bidder keep bidding over and over," how do we know that they're not simply being instructed to?

Message 79 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

I agree. IF I ever bid on an auction, if it goes past 7 days, forget it. I'm not waiting that long. I prefer the BIN.
Message 80 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

Terrible idea for this site.  I know Help isn't favoring it one way or the other but this has been an ongoing topic for many many years.  Those in favor are mostly buyers who got outbid in the last few seconds.  "Oh, I would have paid more and if I wasn't sniped and had a little more time I would have/could have/should have..."   Well, maybe instead of just bidding the next increment you had bid your max in the first place, there may have been a different outcome.

 

To me, fixed end times are the fairest auction method there is.  Everyone knows when it's over and can bid whatever and however they see fit.  Are you a nibbler?  You've got seven or ten days.  Have at it.  Early max bidder?  Cool.  And I bet you hate nibblers.  As for me, I snipe.  Usually win more than I lose.

 

As others have mentioned, extended auctions would be a technical nightmare here.  We can't even have a nice working cart.  Why on earth would anyone want ebay programmers trying to make THIS work??  Putting glitches aside, I would think it would sour most buyers on ebay auctions.  Who wants to wait who knows how long to see if an auction is won?  Not me.  However if I could go into completed auctions that went for a song and extend those...

 

And theoretically, that first broken laser pointer auction could still be running.




Joe

Message 81 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

Anonymous
Not applicable

Hey everyone,

 

I love seeing the discussion of pros and cons regarding a change likes this. We appreciate the constructive criticism shared and I also am happy to see some members discussing how this could work for certain situations. I wanted to give an update on this topic.

 

This idea has come up periodically over the years, and our product team again evaluated it based on your suggestion and decided not to pursue a soft-close feature (AKA popcorn bidding or auction extension).

 

There are pros and cons to the current format, but overall it has worked very well the last couple decades and making such a major change to the auction-format, would cause disruption and create a different set of pros and cons. While we always are striving to innovate in an ever changing market, we do not believe the net benefit to the marketplace supports the resource investment at this time for this particular suggestion.

 

There are also aspects of the current system that buyers and sellers like, such as that the auction-format has a fixed end time. Their time investment is a known quantity. Many sellers also like the fixed end time as it allows them to plan when they will pack and ship.

 

And remember, the current system doesn’t reward the item to the buyer who placed the last bid (sniper), but rewards the item to the buyer who placed the earliest and highest bid (in case of a tie, the buyer who bid earliest will win). Automatic bidding allows the buyer to set the maximum they are willing to pay. If a buyer loses and claims they would have bid more, then they didn’t place their maximum bid.

 

We are always happy to review any suggestions our community provides and changes are often made based on customer feedback! Thanks again to everyone for sharing their ideas on this topic 🙂

Message 82 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?


@Anonymous wrote:

Hey everyone,

 

I love seeing the discussion of pros and cons regarding a change likes this. We appreciate the constructive criticism shared and I also am happy to see some members discussing how this could work for certain situations. I wanted to give an update on this topic.

 

This idea has come up periodically over the years, and our product team again evaluated it based on your suggestion and decided not to pursue a soft-close feature (AKA popcorn bidding or auction extension).

 

There are pros and cons to the current format, but overall it has worked very well the last couple decades and making such a major change to the auction-format, would cause disruption and create a different set of pros and cons. While we always are striving to innovate in an ever changing market, we do not believe the net benefit to the marketplace supports the resource investment at this time for this particular suggestion.

 

There are also aspects of the current system that buyers and sellers like, such as that the auction-format has a fixed end time. Their time investment is a known quantity. Many sellers also like the fixed end time as it allows them to plan when they will pack and ship.

 

And remember, the current system doesn’t reward the item to the buyer who placed the last bid (sniper), but rewards the item to the buyer who placed the earliest and highest bid (in case of a tie, the buyer who bid earliest will win). Automatic bidding allows the buyer to set the maximum they are willing to pay. If a buyer loses and claims they would have bid more, then they didn’t place their maximum bid.

 

We are always happy to review any suggestions our community provides and changes are often made based on customer feedback! Thanks again to everyone for sharing their ideas on this topic 🙂


YAY!!!!  Wise decision IMHO       .. 001 Bouncy.gif

~Pika~
People in life that are the happiest don't have the most,, they make the most of what they have...

Message 83 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?


@*help_no_brakes* wrote:

I have accepted the challenge to post this topic.

It was suggested that a Fire Truck be on standby.

I live in a remote location with a volunteer Fire Service...however here we are...

Image result for fire truck pictures


You're already aware of the contentious debate that comes up over this, I see.

 

Disclosure:  I did not read the replies.

 

I'll just say it's one of the few things that isn't broken that eBay hasn't tried to fix anyhow.

 

As a seller, I'm 100% auctions, and don't like the idea and wouldn't use it.  It will discourage buyers from entering their max. bid, they'll just go one increment.  That will cost me money, especially if they aren't around at the close of auction to bid again.  And indecisive bid nibblers are less likely to end up paying too.

 

As a buyer, I'm about 95% auctions, and don't like the idea and would not use it.  It is wide open to abuse from shill bidding sellers.  And I don't want to pay more or lose items to bid nibblers. 

 

An online auction is a lengthy process anyhow, there's no need to drag it out any longer. 

 

You asked if it was good or bad for eBay, didn't you?  It would harm the auction format.  I'm not sure eBay considers that bad, or even cares if the whole auction business just goes away entirely.  

 

The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.
Message 84 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

There are pros and cons to the current format, but overall it has worked very well the last couple decades and making such a major change to the auction-format, would cause disruption and create a different set of pros and cons. While we always are striving to innovate in an ever changing market, we do not believe the net benefit to the marketplace supports the resource investment at this time for this particular suggestion.

 

Outstanding!

 

Whatever beneift might result, the net benefit would be hugely negative, so it does not support any resource investements.  It ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.
Message 85 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

@ted_200

 

I'm with you 100% & also list auctions only & my buying is about 90% from auctions. 

 

Pleased to see the reply from the Blue. 

 

Remember I posted this topic only as a challenge to do so.

 

Best regards. 

Message 86 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?


@*help_no_brakes* wrote:

@ted_200

 

I'm with you 100% & also list auctions only & my buying is about 90% from auctions. 

 

Pleased to see the reply from the Blue. 

 

Remember I posted this topic only as a challenge to do so.

 

Best regards. 


And same to you.

 

I have this argument fairly regularly with my tenant (an eBay seller, or former seller... he changes his mind every couple of weeks), and he is just adamant that it is a great idea and would end up netting him more money on his auction listings (which he has used, if less than 50% of the time).   There is no dissuading him.  

 

I know it's come up before here, and other eBay personnel of the long distant past have said eBay was (thankfully) disinclined to tinker with it back then too. 

The Floggings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.
Message 87 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?


@Anonymous wrote:

Hey everyone,

 

I love seeing the discussion of pros and cons regarding a change likes this. We appreciate the constructive criticism shared and I also am happy to see some members discussing how this could work for certain situations. I wanted to give an update on this topic.

 

This idea has come up periodically over the years, and our product team again evaluated it based on your suggestion and decided not to pursue a soft-close feature (AKA popcorn bidding or auction extension).

 

There are pros and cons to the current format, but overall it has worked very well the last couple decades and making such a major change to the auction-format, would cause disruption and create a different set of pros and cons. While we always are striving to innovate in an ever changing market, we do not believe the net benefit to the marketplace supports the resource investment at this time for this particular suggestion.

 

There are also aspects of the current system that buyers and sellers like, such as that the auction-format has a fixed end time. Their time investment is a known quantity. Many sellers also like the fixed end time as it allows them to plan when they will pack and ship.

 

And remember, the current system doesn’t reward the item to the buyer who placed the last bid (sniper), but rewards the item to the buyer who placed the earliest and highest bid (in case of a tie, the buyer who bid earliest will win). Automatic bidding allows the buyer to set the maximum they are willing to pay. If a buyer loses and claims they would have bid more, then they didn’t place their maximum bid.

 

We are always happy to review any suggestions our community provides and changes are often made based on customer feedback! Thanks again to everyone for sharing their ideas on this topic 🙂


 

@Anonymous

 

Many thanks for you contribution to this thread.

Message 88 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?


@Anonymous wrote:

Hey everyone,

 

I love seeing the discussion of pros and cons regarding a change likes this. We appreciate the constructive criticism shared and I also am happy to see some members discussing how this could work for certain situations. I wanted to give an update on this topic.

 

This idea has come up periodically over the years, and our product team again evaluated it based on your suggestion and decided not to pursue a soft-close feature (AKA popcorn bidding or auction extension).

 

There are pros and cons to the current format, but overall it has worked very well the last couple decades and making such a major change to the auction-format, would cause disruption and create a different set of pros and cons. While we always are striving to innovate in an ever changing market, we do not believe the net benefit to the marketplace supports the resource investment at this time for this particular suggestion.

 

There are also aspects of the current system that buyers and sellers like, such as that the auction-format has a fixed end time. Their time investment is a known quantity. Many sellers also like the fixed end time as it allows them to plan when they will pack and ship.

 

And remember, the current system doesn’t reward the item to the buyer who placed the last bid (sniper), but rewards the item to the buyer who placed the earliest and highest bid (in case of a tie, the buyer who bid earliest will win). Automatic bidding allows the buyer to set the maximum they are willing to pay. If a buyer loses and claims they would have bid more, then they didn’t place their maximum bid.

 

We are always happy to review any suggestions our community provides and changes are often made based on customer feedback! Thanks again to everyone for sharing their ideas on this topic 🙂


@Anonymous

 

First and foremost, I want to say a public and emphatic THANK YOU for your current post stating that eBay is not going to implement a change of soft closes/auction extensions that I verily believe have been argued/debated about, at times logically, passionately, vociferously, with "no holds barred", with bashing and brawling on the boards, with YELLING at each other, without any regard/observance/consideration of political correctness whatsoever, at all hours night and day, with no fear of reprisal (aka "pink-slap") for as long as I can remember going back to 2000. To me, those were "Thee best of times" because eBay was an OPEN environment that brought out the best, meaning their utmost honesty, from people.

 

For a very long time, I have stated that eBay's Proxy Bidding System as it was known in its formative years was elegantly designed and it works as it was intended to elicit maximum bids from the bidders who used eBay's Proxy Bidding system (currently Automatic Bidding) as it was designed to maximize their own success at winning a fixed-time eBay auction. People knew when the auction was scheduled to close so they had to put forth their maximum bid (or BEST bid as I sometimes call it) as eBay itself prompted, when entering a proxy bid.

 

If you change the bidding environment such that you have a soft close, you remove the impetus, that being the fixed ending time, that is the specific factor that elicits the maximum bids to be submitted in an eBay fixed ending timed auction. In an English auction or an "open-cry" auction (aka Going-Going-Gone), people bid low and are reacting to the known bids simply because there is no fixed ending time. If the bidders (in attendance) know the prevailing bid is $200 because the auction is "open-outcry" and the auctioneer asks for $220, I may not raise my paddle at $220 but I know, in the back of my mind, that I am prepared to go as high as $500 and I may raise my paddle when the auctioneer says going once at $300, going twice at $300, just seconds BEFORE he bangs the gavel and says "Gone/Sold" at $300. In this "open-outcry" auction, where the auctioneer asks twice for a bid of $300, I don't stand up, wave my auction paddle to draw the attention of the auctioneer, and BLURT out "I bid $500" since that is my maximum (or best) bid that I want to keep to myself.

 

When there exist eBay bidders who proclaim that they would have bid more given the chance through auction extensions, how would this be fair to those eBay bidders who did submit their maximum bids? To me, as an at-arms-length party not involved with the eBay auction, this wouldn't be fair because the winning eBay bidder (as determined by eBay at the scheduled ending time of the eBay auction) may not be present when the underbidder is afforded another opportunity to bid in an extended auction beyond the scheduled ending time.

 

On eBay, because it is not an English "open-outcry", first-price, auction format but a second-price, semi-sealed, Vickrey-type auction format, the current high bid displayed in an eBay fixed time auction may or may not be the maximum bid of the prevailing (or current) high bidder. To me, it would be eminently and egregiously unfair to use different rules to apply to certain bidders at different points of the same eBay auction as a soft close would afford.

 

You are correct in stating that a major change like this to the [eBay] auction format will cause disruption and create a different set of pros and cons. I saw considerably more cons and very limited pros to such a proposal/idea of auction extensions/soft closes with respect to eBay's highly successful and long-lived fixed ending time auction format.

 

I also want to express my utmost thanks those other eBay users that have expressed their views that are in opposition to auction extensions/soft closes. To me, you folks "GET IT".

 

I think I will now bring out my fork as I think this turkey is done. Smiley Wink

Godzilla_Goose

Message 89 of 113
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Re: Extended Time Auctions. Good or Bad For eBay? Would you use them or bid on them?

Bet it was only the ignorant losing cry baby's that made these suggestions for change.
Message 90 of 113
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