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Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Hello sellers!

 

Before I share information, I would like to mention that I am extremely familiar with eBay's VeRO program. I know of 'the list', the proper word usage for non-branded items to avoid trademark infringement, not to use pictures that do not belong to me. I also know my rights under the First Sale Doctrine, I've read through countless forums here and on other sites of VeRO takedowns and the dos and don'ts. I've read through eBay's policy page and the rights it grants to intellectual property owners and all of the different types of infringements. I've also read extensively about why eBay created the VeRO program and why they need to have it for themselves. I've been around the block - and I mention this because you may look at my feedback score and think I'm some beginner seller with no idea what they're talking about, or I simply am not familiar with how to list items compliantly according to intellectual rights. Long story short, I'm familiar with the VeRO program very well, more well than I would like to be if I'm being honest.

 

Today I received another glorious VeRO takedown notice from Electrolux for selling one of their branded water filters, the ULTRAWF. I've sold dozens of ULTRAWF filters, so this being taken down is a first. I always receive them from Amazon because the box is damaged and/or the filter itself is damaged. So I sell them as new without an original box. Never been a problem, for over a year in fact. Today's VeRO takedown was a bit different from others. If I was going to receive a VeRO for this item, I'd expect Electrolux to make a counterfeit claim for an unauthorized item. If there is one thing I've learned from selling on eBay, companies can and will deem any item counterfeit, whether it is or not, as a way to eliminate the resale world, while also stomping on sellers rights in the process. It is an extremely easy process for them, too. The best part about it for them is there is no if, ands, ors, or buts. Most of the time, the item is 100% legit, too. You as a seller cannot say anything about it or appeal to it in any way possible. You just take the hit, and the future hits until you inevitably get permanently banned.  Now, don't go thinking "Oh, well you can appeal a VeRO takedown by filing a counter notice through eBay if they don't respond to your email within 5 days." because this won't work. The counter notice ONLY applies to Copyright infringements. If it is a violation for an infringement other than a copyright, your only chance of appeal is through the email given in the VeRO message. Anyone who tries that I wish luck even getting a response. They are legally not obligated to respond to anything. 

 

So this is the VeRO takedown I expected to receive when I first saw the item was removed, but then I was surprised to see I received a VeRO Patent Policy infringement takedown. A patent policy... I infringed on Electrolux's patent rights for selling their filter. If this is the new normal VeRO takedown route companies will take, what stops literally any company from taking down listings for infringing on patent rights? According to Cornell Law School, a patent infringement is "Violation of a patent owner's rights with respect to some invention.  Unless permitted by the patent owner, one commits patent infringement by making, using, offering to sell, or selling something that contains every element of a patented claim or its equivalent while the patent is in effect." 

 

So in theory, couldn't any company who owns a patent to something take any listing with patented items in it down? Also, how does one properly use their rights under the First Sale Doctrine while also not infringing on Patent Rights of the item they're selling? This seems to be a clear grey area, but after doing research, it appears the First Sale Doctrine does in fact allow individuals to sell any patented item as long as they legally obtained the item. 

 

At the end of the day, it appears that my rights are once again being violated by brands, today Electrolux, who are aware that taking them to court over it is much more trouble than it is worth, and of course, is enabled by the much abused VeRO program. Personally, I think the best course of action is to quit selling on eBay. I encourage all readers who are eBay sellers and right's are being violated by the VeRO program to find another channel to sell items on. As for eBay, they need to revise the VeRO program. I do understand that eBay needs the program to ensure that they don't get into legal trouble with brands. However, they need to realize that brands are abusing their power with the program to control markets. Us sellers do not have enough individual power to legally take on these brands. Interestingly enough, some sellers have actually taken these companies to court over this abuse and have won numerous times. Take Tabberone for example. I encourage anyone reading this and going through the same problems to research Tabberone and there cases. It is an extremely interesting read. 

 

If you are a seller who has experienced these issues before, or currently is, I strongly recommend taking your business elsewhere. Don't get it twisted though, you are sending no message. eBay won't miss you. This issue is going to have to get much worse before it gets better. There is not enough light being shined on this yet, and it is my earnest hope that we can bring attention to the issue so that eBay will somehow revise the VeRO program and provide some kind of protection to sellers. You leaving eBay is not a message, but you are going somewhere that will treat you better and not allow brands to violate your rights for the benefit of yourself.

Message 1 of 31
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30 REPLIES 30

Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@donsdetour wrote:

" I always receive them from Amazon because the box is damaged and/or the filter itself is damaged."

 

So you have no idea if they be a china knock off a recalled item or so on.

Might want to check your sources of such products.

 

 


@hunchojack_34 

Also wonder how a VeRO take down could be received on an Amazon listing - VeRO is eBay, nothing to do with any other platform.

 

We created the Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program so that intellectual property owners could report listings or products that infringe on their intellectual property rights. It is in eBay's interest to ensure that infringing items are removed from the site, as they are illegal, and erode the trust of our buyers and sellers.

********************************************************************
I have been imported from Australia and this is my posting ID
Message 16 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

The VERO program basically keeps eBay from getting drug into litigation when a seller either intentionally or unintentionally infringes on the intellectual rights of someone.  Once the one alleging ownership of those rights files a complaint, eBay must take down the listing or run the risk of becoming an accessory to the alleged infringement.  Thus the seller who is alleged to be committing the infringing must deal with the one alleging ownership of the rights directly.

 

While this may get eBay off the hook with regard to becoming a party to any litigation, the rights owner can still seek legal remedy from the alleged infringing seller.  Only the court can make a final judgement in such cases.

"It is an intelligent man that is aware of his own ignorance."
Message 17 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@zip-a-deedoodah wrote:

 

Electrolux is a Swedish company and EU patent law allows patent rights owners to prevent others from selling their invention.  You will ask, but I'm in America and eBay is a US company, and the quick answer is that eBay listings are available in the EU and eBay has a significant presence in Europe.

 

Here's eBay's policy: 

Patent rights (Europe)
A patent is a specific set of rights granted to inventors, giving them the right to exclude others from making, using, and selling their invention. Patents are registered with each region's patent and trademark office.


The filters and the patents and IP belong to KX Technologies who design manufacture for Electrolux and many others. At the moment they seem to be going after Electrolux branded filters but there may be others that just haven't posted here .....yet.

 

The Electrolux filters are subject to a Federal import ban due to the health hazards related to counterfeit filters.

 

 

Message 18 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

So it all boils down to your an expert in the Vero program but yet Ebay still booted you and now you are telling all other Ebay sellers to leave ? How about instead just don't list things companies do not want to you resell. Especially damaged water filters, and filters possibly containing asbestos and other cancer related chemicals.

Message 19 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Except for copyright, eBay under the law does not have to remove a listing, they only do it under their own policy.

 

The law applies to copyright violations only. Authenticity, trademark, or patent abuse are not covered by the DMCA prohibitions on web site removal. It's eBay's own policy that extends the DMCA-like behavior to this. The downside is that as a result you don't get the DMCA-mandated remedies for people who abuse this either.

 

 

Message 20 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@downunder-61 wrote:

@donsdetour wrote:

" I always receive them from Amazon because the box is damaged and/or the filter itself is damaged."

 

So you have no idea if they be a china knock off a recalled item or so on.

Might want to check your sources of such products.

 

 


@hunchojack_34 

Also wonder how a VeRO take down could be received on an Amazon listing - VeRO is eBay, nothing to do with any other platform.

 

We created the Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program so that intellectual property owners could report listings or products that infringe on their intellectual property rights. It is in eBay's interest to ensure that infringing items are removed from the site, as they are illegal, and erode the trust of our buyers and sellers.


 

@downunder-61,

 

I don't think OP meant that he had VeRO takedowns on Amazon.

 

I took that quoted sentence to mean that he had purchased the water filters he was selling on Amazon as open-box or no-box items (which is a pretty good indication that they were counterfeit, all on its own).

Message 21 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@rfmtm wrote:

Except for copyright, eBay under the law does not have to remove a listing, they only do it under their own policy.


The DMCA - or more correctly, the OCILLA act under the DMCA - does not require eBay to remove anything. 

 

OCILLA was passed to protect websites from liability for copyright violations provided that the website removes alleged infringing content promptly after receiving a Notice of Claimed Infringement (NOCI). 

 

It does not require the content be removed; it simply gives websites a liability shield as an incentive for doing so.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act

 

 

 

 

Message 22 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

I think we (all of us seasoned sellers) know this to be a fact that we would win in a civil court with these issues but the big problem is that eBay who should have our backs is sitting back forcing us to fight our own battles in their sideways constructed court & still cashing out subscription fees, final value fees, & listing fees like no tomorrow. I’ve been here for over a decade & ran two successful small businesses accounts pulling in mid six figure sums annually but at some point the scale is going to tip so far against us that we will have to exit the marketplace & eBay will deserve to go down in glorious flames when it does play out that way.

Message 23 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@lacemaker3 wrote:

I took that quoted sentence to mean that he had purchased the water filters he was selling on Amazon as open-box or no-box items (which is a pretty good indication that they were counterfeit, all on its own).

Was gonna say. No box is a great big counterfeit red flag.

Message 24 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

I just had 2 listings removed thru VERO Program abuse.

The removing company's patent is for a SPECIFIC feature not found on my item....NOT the item itself.

They obviously just don't want competition on eBay, so they are filing VERO claims.

eBay needs to have recourse for disputed VERO claims.

This is ridiculous.

Message 25 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

There is a lot of really informative stuff on here.  It's all partially correct, too.  DMCA gave companies in the US a freer hand to take down listings.  The EU patent laws are similar to what is going on here now.  Water filtration of any sort is a huge one.  There will be tons of others as the next few years progress.  I'm keeping a growing list of companies that do not want a secondary market so I can avoid purchasing their items.  

I'll add Electrolux specifically to my list.

 

Message 26 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

@savercitystore  Your recourse is for you to contact the VeRO member, or better yet have an attorney write the VeRO member with a copy to ebay's legal department.  If no response call ebay.

Message 27 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

@mrsbmcv77   As I post earlier the DMCA law applies to copyright violations only. Authenticity, trademark, or patent abuse are not covered by the DMCA prohibitions on web site removal. It's eBay's own policy that extends the DMCA-like behavior to this. The downside is that as a result you don't get the DMCA-mandated remedies for people who abuse this either.

 

Doubt any company really wants a secondary market on ebay, and there are always those that will abuse the system and find loopholes in the law to prevent it.  This is what ebay needs to help us out with.  Although many of us have fought back and won, still more are penalized for not being able to.

Message 28 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

I think we should round up sellers for a class action. 

Message 29 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

What platform do you recommend?

Message 30 of 31
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