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Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Hello sellers!

 

Before I share information, I would like to mention that I am extremely familiar with eBay's VeRO program. I know of 'the list', the proper word usage for non-branded items to avoid trademark infringement, not to use pictures that do not belong to me. I also know my rights under the First Sale Doctrine, I've read through countless forums here and on other sites of VeRO takedowns and the dos and don'ts. I've read through eBay's policy page and the rights it grants to intellectual property owners and all of the different types of infringements. I've also read extensively about why eBay created the VeRO program and why they need to have it for themselves. I've been around the block - and I mention this because you may look at my feedback score and think I'm some beginner seller with no idea what they're talking about, or I simply am not familiar with how to list items compliantly according to intellectual rights. Long story short, I'm familiar with the VeRO program very well, more well than I would like to be if I'm being honest.

 

Today I received another glorious VeRO takedown notice from Electrolux for selling one of their branded water filters, the ULTRAWF. I've sold dozens of ULTRAWF filters, so this being taken down is a first. I always receive them from Amazon because the box is damaged and/or the filter itself is damaged. So I sell them as new without an original box. Never been a problem, for over a year in fact. Today's VeRO takedown was a bit different from others. If I was going to receive a VeRO for this item, I'd expect Electrolux to make a counterfeit claim for an unauthorized item. If there is one thing I've learned from selling on eBay, companies can and will deem any item counterfeit, whether it is or not, as a way to eliminate the resale world, while also stomping on sellers rights in the process. It is an extremely easy process for them, too. The best part about it for them is there is no if, ands, ors, or buts. Most of the time, the item is 100% legit, too. You as a seller cannot say anything about it or appeal to it in any way possible. You just take the hit, and the future hits until you inevitably get permanently banned.  Now, don't go thinking "Oh, well you can appeal a VeRO takedown by filing a counter notice through eBay if they don't respond to your email within 5 days." because this won't work. The counter notice ONLY applies to Copyright infringements. If it is a violation for an infringement other than a copyright, your only chance of appeal is through the email given in the VeRO message. Anyone who tries that I wish luck even getting a response. They are legally not obligated to respond to anything. 

 

So this is the VeRO takedown I expected to receive when I first saw the item was removed, but then I was surprised to see I received a VeRO Patent Policy infringement takedown. A patent policy... I infringed on Electrolux's patent rights for selling their filter. If this is the new normal VeRO takedown route companies will take, what stops literally any company from taking down listings for infringing on patent rights? According to Cornell Law School, a patent infringement is "Violation of a patent owner's rights with respect to some invention.  Unless permitted by the patent owner, one commits patent infringement by making, using, offering to sell, or selling something that contains every element of a patented claim or its equivalent while the patent is in effect." 

 

So in theory, couldn't any company who owns a patent to something take any listing with patented items in it down? Also, how does one properly use their rights under the First Sale Doctrine while also not infringing on Patent Rights of the item they're selling? This seems to be a clear grey area, but after doing research, it appears the First Sale Doctrine does in fact allow individuals to sell any patented item as long as they legally obtained the item. 

 

At the end of the day, it appears that my rights are once again being violated by brands, today Electrolux, who are aware that taking them to court over it is much more trouble than it is worth, and of course, is enabled by the much abused VeRO program. Personally, I think the best course of action is to quit selling on eBay. I encourage all readers who are eBay sellers and right's are being violated by the VeRO program to find another channel to sell items on. As for eBay, they need to revise the VeRO program. I do understand that eBay needs the program to ensure that they don't get into legal trouble with brands. However, they need to realize that brands are abusing their power with the program to control markets. Us sellers do not have enough individual power to legally take on these brands. Interestingly enough, some sellers have actually taken these companies to court over this abuse and have won numerous times. Take Tabberone for example. I encourage anyone reading this and going through the same problems to research Tabberone and there cases. It is an extremely interesting read. 

 

If you are a seller who has experienced these issues before, or currently is, I strongly recommend taking your business elsewhere. Don't get it twisted though, you are sending no message. eBay won't miss you. This issue is going to have to get much worse before it gets better. There is not enough light being shined on this yet, and it is my earnest hope that we can bring attention to the issue so that eBay will somehow revise the VeRO program and provide some kind of protection to sellers. You leaving eBay is not a message, but you are going somewhere that will treat you better and not allow brands to violate your rights for the benefit of yourself.

Message 1 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Hey there! I know it’s VERY frustrating to try & do business here legitimately only to have the marketplace have tools in place that allow the sniffing out of competition unfairly. I have had a handful of these situations. Currently sitting on a 3 day listing suspension thanks to the garbage sandwhich makers at Subway attempting to claim some workwear items as “counterfeit”  even though I happen to have documentation of the order placed by their company ordering th manufacture & sale of these hats & aprons hah. Anyways, if you ever encounter this again you can cite the 2016 Supreme Court decision in impression products uncle vs Lexmark among others where the court stated that a patent owner cannot suppress the rights of anybody who purchased their product from reselling said product (grey market items). They control the patent as far as manufacturing goes but they do not control individuals or businesses abilities to purchase & sell their products. I have threatened to sue two companies under this same situation on here & they have backed down once & the other time changed their story & claimed violation of parallel import policy (which was not what they filed to eBay). In that situation I called eBay & provided proof of the manufacturer’s abuse of the system & they actually lifted the suspension one day early (2 days had passed already). It’s only a matter of time until this feature lands eBay in some hot water legally as a facilitator of illegal competitive practices by manufacturers & if I ever see the story about a class action I will join immediately. Have wasted many hours & lost hundreds of sales in the time I’ve spent with this **bleep**. 

Cheers & eat the rich. 

Message 2 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Water filters appear to be the flavour of the week with VeRO take downs.............

 

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/VERO-violation-for-selling-a-new-sealed-water-filter/m-p/32822...

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I have been imported from Australia and this is my posting ID
Message 3 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Do not relist until the VeRO member lifts the complaint.

 

First contact the VeRO member, give them the facts supporting your authentic legally obtained item.  Telling them you want to work this out before going to your attorney.  If no answer or an unsatisfactory one, the easiest thing to do first is have your attorney send them a letter, making sure to copy ebay's legal department.  This alone often has the abuser back down.

 

However, if they don't back down and it is clear abuse you have the right, for reasonable fee, to file in your local federal court, making them come to you.   Plus in federal court the loser pays the winner's costs and up to trebled damages.  This step even more often backs the abuser down.

 

Many have done this and won, even without an attorney, and once eBay's legal department is notified of the outcome, they leave you alone.  Still, hardly worth it unless you have damages and it is affecting your ongoing business.

Note that the water filter take downs appear to be getting out of hand.  In this case you may be able to find a public advocate group with legal resources to take on your case in the public's interest.   Once a group like this files on your behalf, almost all abusers settle out of court, often with a payment to make it go away.

Message 4 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

" I always receive them from Amazon because the box is damaged and/or the filter itself is damaged."

 

So you have no idea if they be a china knock off a recalled item or so on.

Might want to check your sources of such products.

 

 

Message 5 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@donsdetour wrote:

" I always receive them from Amazon because the box is damaged and/or the filter itself is damaged."

 

So you have no idea if they be a china knock off a recalled item or so on.

Might want to check your sources of such products.

 

 


 

@donsdetouris correct -- you have no idea if what you're selling is authentic or not.

 

Water filters are frequently counterfeited, and the sources you are purchasing from are widely used to distribute fakes.

 

You need to purchase from better sources ... and you should not waste any time fighting this, because you won't win, and if you waste too much time, you may end up having to pay punitive damages.

Message 6 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

 

Electrolux is a Swedish company and EU patent law allows patent rights owners to prevent others from selling their invention.  You will ask, but I'm in America and eBay is a US company, and the quick answer is that eBay listings are available in the EU and eBay has a significant presence in Europe.

 

Here's eBay's policy: 

Patent rights (Europe)
A patent is a specific set of rights granted to inventors, giving them the right to exclude others from making, using, and selling their invention. Patents are registered with each region's patent and trademark office.

Message 7 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

You are assuming that your Vero takedown was incorrectly applied. The possibility exists that it is a legitimate Vero removal. 

Today I received another glorious VeRO takedown notice from Electrolux for selling one of their branded water filters,..”

 

The statement above signals that you have had multiple takedowns. That’s not good. It seems like you have been flirting with risk. Are you repeatedly relisting the brands that have cited you for infringement?

 

It is against the forum rules to encourage others to leave the platform. They have a point. It is against the spirit of the community to do so.

Message 8 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program


@downunder-61 wrote:

Water filters appear to be the flavour of the week with VeRO take downs.............

 

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/VERO-violation-for-selling-a-new-sealed-water-filter/m-p/32822...


 

Water filters are known to be counterfeited, so the chances are that the counterfeiters released a batch of fakes through their distribution channels a few months ago, and they are now filtering into the hands of various eBay sellers.

 

Knowing how modern manufacturing works (especially in China) the chances are that these counterfeits are being produced in the same plant that produces the authentic ones. They  may have been selling off the rejected ones that didn't pass inspection (and were supposed to be scrapped), or they may not have had enough orders to keep their plant running at capacity, so they produced some runs "off the books" that they couldn't ship to the legitimate company, so they sold them under the table. Any items that were produced that way probably were not held to any kind of quality standards.

Message 9 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

The law at issue is not US law, but European law, so quoting Lexmark will get you nowhere 

Message 10 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

The patent system give the patent owner the right to exclude others from making, using, and selling the patented invention, for the life of the patent. The right to exclude, however, is subject to the rule of patent exhaustion – upon the sale of a patented product, the patent owner’s patent rights are exhausted and the buyer is free to use or resell the product. Similar to the first sale doctrine.

 

Message 11 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

@downunder-61 

Wow...my SAT's weren't this long. 🙄

Message 12 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

@rrf  Under EU law it appears that the rule of patent exhaustion does not apply if the patented object was placed on the market illegally or without the licensed consent of the rights holder.  We really don't have enough info from the OP about how he obtained his products.

 

Here's some light reading on the subject if you have nothing better to do this weekend.  

 

EU rules on exhaustion are largely the result of the jurisprudence of the Court of Justice of the European Union interpreting Article 34 TFEU on measures having equivalent effect to quantitative restrictions between Member States. The Court of Justice has always interpreted the Treaty as meaning that rights conferred by IP rights are exhausted within the single market by virtue of putting the relevant goods on the market (by the right holder or with his/her consent) in the European Union. See for instance cases: e.g. Centrafarm and Adriaan de Peijper v Sterling Drug Inc (C-15/74), Merck and Co Inc. vs Stephar BV and Petrus Stephanus Exler (C-187/80).

This jurisprudence is reflected in several pieces of EU law in respect to intellectual property right: Article 15 (Exhaustion of the rights conferred by an EU trade mark) of Regulation (EU) 2017/1001 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 14 June 2017 on the European Union trade mark, OJ L 154, 16.6.2017, p. 1; Article 15 (Exhaustion of the rights conferred by a trade mark) of Directive (EU) 2015/2436 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 December 2015 to approximate the laws of the Member States relating to trade marks, OJ L 336, 23.12.2015, p. 1; Article 21 (Exhaustion of rights) of Council Regulation (EC) No 6/2002 of 12 December 2001 on Community designs, OJ L 3, 5.1.2002, p. 1; Article 15 (Exhaustion of rights) of Directive 98/71/EC; Article 16 (Exhaustion of Community plant variety rights) of Council Regulation (EC) No 2100/94 of 27 July 1994 on Community plant variety rights, OJ L 227, 1.9.1994, p. 1; Article 4 (Distribution right) of Directive 2001/29/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 May 2001 on the harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights in the information society, OJ L 167 22.6.2001, p. 10; Article 4 (Restricted acts) of Directive 2009/24 on the legal protection of computer programs, OJ L 111, 5.5.2009, p. 16; Article 5(5) of Council Directive 87/54/EEC of 16 December 1986 on the legal protection of topographies of semiconductor products; OJ L 24, 27.1.1987, p. 36.

Message 13 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Just a few days ago I had one of these same filters removed from Ebay due to a supposed VERO violation. I posted here about it, and not happy.

Message 14 of 31
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Re: Abuse of eBay's VeRO program

Of course it doesn't apply if illegally obtain or not originally sold by the rights holder.  It is the same with US patent rights.

 

And you are right we don't have enough information, but assuming he has authentic legally obtained items originally sold by the manufacturer, he has the right to resell them here in USA, with a possible exception that they were not made as an export model and don't comply to USA standards.

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