Holding item while Seller disputes insurance claim denial

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

I recently purchased a set of Talisman Board games from a seller ($600.00).  One of the corners of the shipping box was slightly dented, and when I opened the box (which was packed with only paper) 3 boxes were ripped and 2 of the boards were damaged and the boxes they were in looked to be pushed in.  I sent a message and several photos to the seller.  He filed a claim and I was sent a letter to take the item in for inspection.  During this time I had been communicating with the seller about what he needed from me and what kind of agreement we could come up with about the damage.  The seller kept blowing the agreement questions off or ignoring it completely.  I even explained to him that I have a limited time to get refunded or a partial credit.  The seller replied with "Let's hope it doesn't come to that, and I should look around for replacement parts.  This went on for about 5 days.  After one last message where I was more direct about getting something worked out, the seller did not respond.  I gave him a couple of days and when I did not get a response, I opened a case for a refund. (Maybe my second one ever)  This of course got the seller to finally respond.  Which was that he didn't except returns, it wasn't his fault the item was damaged, he doesn't check his email every day and that I should wait to see what the post office says.  I told the seller that I am protected by eBay's return policy, and that we have 4 days to work something out.  He then stated that of course he would give me a refund after the Post office made it's decision. 

As of yesterday the post office denied the claim.  The supervisor stated he did not think the items were damaged in transit and that he left notes on the claim.  I messaged the seller and told him that the supervisor denied the claim.  I told the seller I will hold the item in case he was wanting to appeal the denial.  I also don't have access to the claim, so I am unsure what exactly was filed.  The seller contacted me wanting to look into talking to someone else and that the claim was still showing pending on his end.    

Here are my questions:

1) Can I take the box to another Post Office and see if there is anyone else I can show it to?  I feel like the first Supervisor dismissed the items as they were only board games and were not very important.

2) Does shipping the item back still void the insurance claim now that they have already inspected and denied it?  I don't mind continuing to help the seller, but I believe that I have to send the item back before eBay refunds my money, correct?

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

"It doesn't matter to the post office how much the postage was on the return label.  they will adjust it when the seller gets the package back and will charge his ebay account accordingly.  You don't need to be concerned but you do need to return the package within 5 days. "

The Post office told me that the postage wasn't enough, they were going to charge me about $50.00 to take it.  I was just going to drop it off, but the clerk stopped me.  He stated it wasn't the correct amount?

[ms.rodriguez*]

Why don't you direct the seller to this page so that he /she can learn.  Also tell him that you will be escalating the claim.   Do tell them that if an item is NOT packed correctly,  the post office will NEVER accept the claim.   Escalate it  in 24 hours.  HOLD on to all of the items including whatever packaging he/she used.    He will have to send you a return label too.

[orangehound]

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@bam_bom_gjvopyw wrote:

So this just keeps getting better.  The RMA that was provided to me was a return label that was worth $5.50 (according to the clerk at the Post Office).  I have contacted eBay and they reopened the case.  I will call them again to day to get an update.  The rep for eBay stated they were sending an email to the seller to supply a correct RMA, which I still have not received.  

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@bam_bom_gjvopyw 

Just to clarify, was the return label a "First Class Package Return Service" or a "Priority Mail Return Service" label?   If so, the package can be returned with that label without any additional cost from you, because the charges are billed to the issuer ... and the postal clerk was incorrect.

But, if it is just a regular postage label, then ... yeah ... horrible seller.

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

It is a First-Class Package Return Service.  (I've saved the RMA to my computer)

This is my first time dealing with a forced return and trying to find facts about the process has been frustrating.   Thank you for replying as this clarifies what I should be looking for.  It makes sense seeing as a seller would not know the actual cost of a return due them not knowing what box and weight of the return would be. 

I will get with eBay today and try and get this straightened out. 

I was even going to pay the shipping but I wasn't sure if that would screw me over by not handling it correctly.

Thank you so much, I will update this thread once I get things going. 

[orangehound]

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@bam_bom_gjvopyw wrote:

It is a First-Class Package Return Service.  (I've saved the RMA to my computer)

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@bam_bom_gjvopyw 

Well, you can call eBay and have them issue a Priority Mail Return Service label ... or see if a a different post office / postal clerk will accept the package.

Notes:

• eBay seems to issue First Class Package Return Labels when the weight or shipping service is not specified by the original listing ...
• According to the USPS, the First Class Package Return Label should only be used on packages under 16 ounces, but I frequently get heavier pieces returned with those labels on them.  This tells me that a lot of postal clerks don't reject them.  This is why I wrote above that you could try again with a different clerk.
• (I don't know this).  I suspect a package shipped with a First Class Package Return Label on what should be a Priority Mail package should get snagged by the USPS' APV system and the charges for the return shipping will be adjusted from First Class to Priority Mail.
• Regardless, costs for this label are NEVER paid by you.  They will be billed to eBay, who in turn charges the seller for the lesser of (a) the actual cost of the return, and (b) the original outbound shipping cost if purchased through eBay labels.

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

I talked to a eBay rep and they were on top of it.  The notes they had for the case were in fact that the seller supplied a First Class Package Label and the case was put on hold until April 11th.  The seller was contacted to supply a Priority Mail Return Service label.  If they do not by tomorrow (April 10th) I am to call eBay back and they will issue me the appropriate label for me to attached and send back.

Again, thank you all for your input.  The eBay community is always professional and on top of things.  It is very refreshing to be able to get straight forward answers without "trolls" chiming in!   I hope that this thread will help others in my situation down the road.

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

Well I had to reach out to eBay, they have closed the case and awarded me a full refund.  They did in fact tell me I do not have to send the item back.    

In the case file, it shows that eBay decided the case in my favor, but it does not state that I do not have to send the item back.  Will I receive an email confirmation for this?  Seeing as the seller is not familiar with the process, I assume he will reach out to me once he doesn't get the item back and eBay has taken the funds from his account.  Just covering all the possible issues that may arise from this.

[nobody*s_perfect]

The fact that you have gotten the refund is all the proof that you need.  If eBay wanted you to return the item, they would have provided a shipping label and would have required you to return the item before getting your refund.

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

As I thought, the seller has reached out to me to get the items back.  He is requesting I send it back as a COD.  After a little research, I don't trust this guy.  If my findings are correct, all he'd have to do is write a bad check or cancel the payment after receiving the item and then I would be charged the shipping amount.  I am not sure if this is correct. 

I have not contacted the seller back as of yet until I can find a way to send it back with no risk to me.  I have already done a lot in terms of trying to help the seller out with the insurance claim, I even took a half day when he sent his wrong RMA for me to send back.  Even after his constant dismissals of my requests and rude bully like messages to try and make me go away.  I was always polite and straight forward with the seller.  I still have the items boxed up from when I tried to send it back and had no plans to open or use them.  I knew at some point the seller would reach out to me.  The seller also reach out to me on my personal email.  (Which looking back was probably a bad idea to use when sending the pics of the damaged items). 

Not sure where I should or if I should do anything.  In on hand, I got a full refund, so I don't care if I have the items.  On the second, I am not sure if there is a way to send it back to him without screwing myself in the process.

Before I respond to the seller I want to make sure I know what my plan will be.  I am not sure if telling him to not message me via my email, but only contact me through ebay is the proper way to handle it.

[nobody*s_perfect]

You're right, it's totally sketchy for the seller to ask you to ship COD.  There's  a fee for using that service of course, so the seller is offering to pay that extra fee, rather than use the obvious route of sending you the money to pay for the postage.

The seller already had your personal email in the details of your PayPal payment transaction; sending the images didn't reveal it to him.

[jeannicho22]

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@bam_bom_gjvopyw wrote:

As I thought, the seller has reached out to me to get the items back.  He is requesting I send it back as a COD.  After a little research, I don't trust this guy.  If my findings are correct, all he'd have to do is write a bad check or cancel the payment after receiving the item and then I would be charged the shipping amount.  I am not sure if this is correct. 

I have not contacted the seller back as of yet until I can find a way to send it back with no risk to me.  I have already done a lot in terms of trying to help the seller out with the insurance claim, I even took a half day when he sent his wrong RMA for me to send back.  Even after his constant dismissals of my requests and rude bully like messages to try and make me go away.  I was always polite and straight forward with the seller.  I still have the items boxed up from when I tried to send it back and had no plans to open or use them.  I knew at some point the seller would reach out to me.  The seller also reach out to me on my personal email.  (Which looking back was probably a bad idea to use when sending the pics of the damaged items). 

Not sure where I should or if I should do anything.  In on hand, I got a full refund, so I don't care if I have the items.  On the second, I am not sure if there is a way to send it back to him without screwing myself in the process.

Before I respond to the seller I want to make sure I know what my plan will be.  I am not sure if telling him to not message me via my email, but only contact me through ebay is the proper way to handle it.

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Dear seller,

Please note that per eBay I do not even have to send your widget back to you... at all.  Since I'm a reasonable and honest guy I really don't want to keep something that doesn't belong to me.  If you want your widget back you need to send me a shipping label that includes any other costs that you feel necessary to get your item back.  This is non-negotiable and not open to discussion or compromise of any sort.  Please do not even respond back if you aren't in agreement or do not want your widget back.  If I do not hear back from you with a shipping label I will assume you don't want the item back and I will donate it to my local homeless shelter.

Kind regards,

Not stupid, tired of the run around, lost all patience buyer 

[tracdea1]

When you have a problem with the items that you receive, you open an INR, especially if you are limited on time. Corresponding with the seller was a waste of time if you did not just open a case (which is actually the proper way to handle problems here).

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

What kind of label should I request the seller to send me? 

Also, I want to make sure that it is noted and that the seller can not come back later disputing that I sent it back.   I'm not sure that keeping a copy of any shipping label would be enough and I am not sure if legally he can file a legal case against me.  That is why I thought using ebay's messaging would protect me from something like that.  I would make sure he post the tracking label on a message and laid out what he was going to do and send to me.  At this point I have no reason to believe anything the seller is trying to do.  I am all about doing the right thing, but I am sure the seller is not of the same mindset.  I plan on calling ebay first to verify that the refund was pulled from the seller and not paid for by only ebay.

Thanks again for all the answers.  

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

"When you have a problem with the items that you receive, you open an INR, especially if you are limited on time. Corresponding with the seller was a waste of time if you did not just open a case (which is actually the proper way to handle problems here)."

I opened the case as soon as it was obvious the seller was not going to credit me or give me a refund.  I ended up winning the case and ebay told me keep the item.  It's been a couple weeks since I got the refund and already knew the seller was going to reach out to me.  This is the first time I have ever had to have eBay step in, so I am just trying to cover myself now that ebay is no longer involved.

[bam_bom_gjvopyw]

The buyer apparently went to the police and filed a report.  I received an email from a police officer, I have removed the names and address/phone numbers from the original email.  Here is what the officer sent me:

"Email titled Case #19-xxxxx

This e-mail is for Michael xxxxxx, (Me)

My name is Officer xxxxx with the xxxxx City Police Department located in xxxx, Utah.  Kyle xxxxx (Seller) has filed a report with the Police Department regarding an item you had originally purchased on ebay via PayPal on 03/10/2019.  It appears there was a complaint that the item was damaged and as a result PayPal refunded you the cost of the item.  Kyle did have the item insured through USPS, but needs the item back to dispute their non-coverage and due to PayPal refunding you the cost of the item.

The item: "Talisman 4th Edition" needs to be mailed to the following address ASAP.

Kyle xxxxx

xxxxx  xxxxx Way

xxxxx, UT. xxxxxx

Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

Sincerely,

Officer W. xxxxxxx

xxxxx City Police Department

xxx xxxxx Dr.

xxxxx, UT. xxxxx

Desk: xxx-xxx-xxxx"

I reached out to Ebay and they were adamant that I do not need to take any further actions.  I asked them what I should do about the email from the officer, they said I should answer it honestly and explain to him what Ebay has been stating to me about not having to return the item.

I did reply to the officer with:

"I had made multiple reasonable efforts to get the items back to Mr. X, but Mr. X was unwilling to help.  I even took a half a day off work and multiple trips to the Post Office trying to get this matter resolved.  I informed Mr. X about Ebay's money back guarantee and that he was obligated to refund me.  He was unresponsive and unwilling to help so I eventually had to open a case against Mr. X with Ebay. 

I will gladly send you the photos of the damaged items and the transcripts of Mr. X's and my conversations through Ebay's messaging system showing his unwillingness to corporate in the matter and my many attempts to resolve this matter.   The last thing Mr. X told me before Ebay had to step in was that he would not refund me my money and that he would not respond to any more of my messages. 

Mr. X decided to let Ebay make a ruling on the case and per the terms and agreements that he agreed to when he listed the item on Ebay, Ebay ruled the case in my favor and told me I can keep the item.  

I have continuously reached out to Ebay about this case and they have ensured me every time that I have done everything that I needed to do and that I am not legally obligated to take any further actions on this matter, which is the route I am taking.

Here is the ref# for this Ebay transaction:

Case ID# xxxxxxxxxx

Item# xxxxxxxxxxx

Ref# 1-xxxxxxxxxx 

Please let me know if you need me to supply documentation or have any other questions.

Regards,

Michael"

My question is there an alternate route I should be taking when contacting Ebay about this situation.  The seller has reached out a couple of times to me stating I need to return the item COD.  I have not responded to any of those emails.   I am confused as to why the police officer is stating that I need to send the item back ASAP.  

I tried getting a hold of the Police Department that was listed on the email, but I guess they were closed as all I got was a voicemail.  (I googled the actual Police Station number, I did not use the number the email listed to call)  Tomorrow at lunch I am going to call the department again and verify that the officer does in fact work there.  I have to believe someone is not stupid enough to pose as an officer.  The original email sent from the officer had the seller Cc'd on the email.  I did not add the seller to my response as I thought that was weird that the officer would include the accuser.

I will update this once I get more information.

Again, thanks to all of the responses.  They are always helpful.