sold my car on eBay, PayPal reversed payment after delivery

[eddieo45]

buyer seemed legit (of course, right?): messaged me on eBay and followed up with a text asking when we could talk on the phone. he had a Brooklyn phone number but was in Vegas, and a Google search of the number seemed to support that. we spoke several times, did a FaceTime "test drive" and exchanged dozens of texts. he paid the $1000 deposit on my eBay listing, for which I was charged the 2.9% PayPal fee, then he "friends and family" PayPal'ed me the balance. a friend who sells cars for a living advised me to move the money out of the PayPal account and into my bank as soon as possible, which I did. delivery took a week or so to coordinate, as he sent me transport company info and it took a while to coordinate, and he called me excitedly when the car arrived, thanking me and saying it was nicer than he'd hoped. the next day I got two emails from PayPal "We're reviewing a payment reversal..." for each of the payments, allowing me to enter the scantest details at Resolution Center. Oddly, the "We're reviewing a payment reversal..." emails began "We recently notified you that a payment you received was made without the account holder's permission, or was the result of a transaction error" but they were my first notification. Within hours of me entering the sale and delivery info I got more emails from PayPal, "We've completed our review....We’ve confirmed the transaction was unauthorized and have refunded $8,750.00...." My PayPal balance is now a negative $9700 or so, as the $1000 deposit is also "on hold". I called PayPal and pleaded my case and they said they'd review the sale, and that it would take 11 days (??!). Around this time I got a voicemail from the buyer (from a different phone number, only seven digits of which show up) stating that his ex-wife has hacked into his accounts. By then the title I had signed over to him had arrived by Priority Mail. I exported about 12 pages of text messages between the buyer and me and uploaded them to the PayPal Resolution Center. I tried to unlink my bank account info but was not allowed, but my bank assures me that PayPal cannot claw back the funds. Oddly enough, a good 36 hours after the "case closed" emails I received a "Case Opened" email from PayPal, this time for the amount $9,004.05, which is what the $8750 would have cost him had he not sent it friends and family.

The Brooklyn phone number is now out of service, of course. Should I be dealing with law enforcement and/or consumer protection agency?

[gopetersen]

I probably shouldn't post this, because it's such a downer and what the OP needs is help and support, but sometimes it helps to know what kinds of things can happen.

This is a few years old, but this group was stripping cars and selling them on eBay Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if the simple publication of the story "inspired" thieves in the U.S. to try the same thing:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236332/Stolen-luxury-cars-broken-component-parts-Mancheste...

[marinermikes]

This another reason why you never except pay pal for a vehicle payment!  Pay Pal would be for deposit only.  Cash, bank to bank wire transfer are the way to go.  Even cashiers checks can be forged and take weeks or months to find out. That and the amount of Pay Pal fees on that much money.

You were picked on solely because of the payment arrangements.

All the advice you were given here is good. I'll add one thing. You must mention to Pay Pal that this payment was for titled property along with your police reports

Hope you get this fixed.. 

[eddieo45]

I appreciate all the support, advice and comments, really, and I will likely contact Las Vegas police today. I held for 50+ minutes on the phone yesterday to speak to someone in PayPal dispute resolution and will be uploading the BOL from the shipping company.

One thing many commenters seem to have missed is that I moved the PayPal funds to my bank account, so I have the money (I checked with my bank; no one can move it back but me). PayPal indicated that the claim came through the "buyer's" card, and it'll be resolved between card company and PayPal.

[emerald_door]

I'm so sorry this happened to you.  There's some good advice on this thread.  Good luck and please keep us posted.  

[djsw25]

You shipped the car to Vegas? It's already in Mexico.

[amarus31]

Here's what will happen. PayPal will take you to collections. Eventually they will get a judgment issued against you. Your pay may eventually be garnished. Also,you're on the hook for paying the eBay fees on that car. If you don't pay those fees eBay will take you to collections.

The theif is long gone, as someone else said that car probably cross the border within 24 hours of arriving in Las Vegas. All Pp and eBay will care about is getting their money and you're the only person they can nail for it since chances are you're the only person that gave a legit name.

[18704d]

"One thing many commenters seem to have missed is that I moved the PayPal funds to my bank account, so I have the money (I checked with my bank; no one can move it back but me)."

---------

I'm sorry this happened to you, and hope it can soon be resolved...

but as said earlier, Paypal can and does take people to collections.

Moving your funds does not ensure safety.

Thanks,

Lynn

[sam9876]

You are going to be fine as soon as PayPal recognizes that the payments were for a car.

[orange_cape_hides_me]

Unfortunately you do not know that the car was transported to Las Vegas.  If you have the transportation company's name and phone number, you might want to inquire where the car was delivered to help you determine what police department to contact.   And you should not only contact the PD in the location of the delivery, but that state's Department of Motor Vehicles and report the car stolen so no one can register it.

Not that I think it's going to be registered.  It was probably delivered to a chop shop.   

So sorry you had this experience, however I thank you for posting about it so others may learn about yet another way they can be defrauded on an eBay listing.   For real estate and motor vehicles, wire transfer is the only iron clad protection a seller has that they will receive bona fide, legitimate funds.

[moondogblues]

Paragraphs are wonderful!

[sam9876]

Wouldn't you think that cash is king?

[jediskyy · Accepted solution]

After all the police reports are filed, including one local, you may be able to file an insurance claim. Whenever and however we have sold a car we keep it insured for a little while.

[eddieo45]

Again, thanks to most of you for the sincere attempts at advice and assistance. While sam9876's comment gave me some hope temporarily, neither PayPal nor eBay has been any help. PayPal has taken the buyer's claim at face value, and is not at all interested in my proof of delivery (a "supervisor" actually told me that a tracking number would have more validity than my signed Bill of Lading, like any of us has never seen a tracking report stating that a package was left at our front door, but it hadn't). For anyone actually trying to suss out what really happened here, the general consensus seems to be that a scammer hacked a legit eBay account, spoofed a phone number, groomed me and conned me. Not so fast....

jediskyy was most helpful, as my insurance company does see this as car theft. LV Police would not take a report, instead referring me to the courts for what they deem a civil matter. As for keeping insurance on a sold car, I don't know anyone that does that, but I don't usually sell cars. Once I removed my plates and gave it to the transport company (on a Saturday), I texted my agent and told him to reduce the coverage, as I plan to transfer the plates to whatever new car I buy. The insurance company is using the Saturday date as date of loss.

I called the transport driver and requested the fully signed BoL, and I told him my situation. He remembered the "buyer" picking up the car wearing military fatigues. I was printing out some documents to bring to my local PD when I saw an unanswered eBay message from the buyer. I had seen it before; it came in AFTER the payment reversal and asked "did someone pick this car up on the 17th?" I had ignored it, assuming it either evidence of the scam or part of it, but now for some reason I decided to reply to it, "it was delivered to you on 1/29." "Do you have proof of this?" he asks, followed by "I need this to stop. This matter has already been sent to eBay, PayPal, my banks, and everybody else concerned. Any other questions can be directed to the police. There is no car here, no car in my possession. If you have been swindled I’m sorry to hear that but I want no part of any of this." I send him the BoL and ask "Is that not your address? Why would you wait 12-13 days to dispute the transaction, only after it was delivered??" He replies "Please stop messaging me...", then "Call me xxx-xxx-xxxx."

He answers and asks if he can call me back in a few seconds and he does. He says stuff like "I'm done with this...I've got nothing more to say" and I say something like "with all due respect, if you were scammed as well as me, you're a long way from done. I'm just getting started with police and insurance and you will likely be telling your story again and again." At this point a female voice asks me a question and then the line goes dead. He calls me back and apologizes for hanging up, says he didn't mean for that to happen. Then he says he received a package from me, [that's the title] recognized my name as the same one from the "scam" PayPal purchase, and, not wanting to open it and get his fingerprints on anything, he brought it to the LV Police. [who worries about getting their fingerprints on documents? criminals, that's who.] I asked him if he could tell me who at the LV Police I could talk to to get that back, and he says he'll go down to the police station now. I told him I was heading to my own local police station as well, please let me know. Then it really got weird.....

I get an eBay message from his account,  "Eddie,

I’m his wife.
Please call me

xxx-xxx-xxxx

I need to know if you were talking to my husband or not." He calls me and says he's got the package [that was fast!] and do I want it sent ["yes please"]. Then he tells me he can't get into his eBay account, like someone else is in it, and asks if I've gotten any messages from it. I tell him I'm at the police station [true] and I haven't checked [lie].

I text the wife and tell her I'll call her shortly, although the officer I spoke to advised against it. She texts me back that she wants me to send her screenshots of texts showing they come from her husband's number. I tell her it was a different number and she tells me he recently changed numbers, then confirms the number that he had used originally. I call her and tell her I want to talk to my insurance adjuster before I do that. She tells me she's pregnant (he had mentioned that when he was "grooming" me, and that the linked credit card is her father's. I ask her if the husband recently bought her a BMW (another story from the grooming) and she confirms he did. I told her I have a voicemail from him claiming his ex-wife hacked his accounts, and she sounds like a woman who already has lots of reasons to not trust her husband. Ultimately I texted her and asked her to make sure he sends me back the title, after which I will forward the texts and voicemail. Nothing further since then.

So, I'm happy to have my insurance company involved since there are so many scams that could be going on here. I'm currently girding my loins before calling PayPal for the umpteenth time, this time to ask how they can be charging me back for more money than I even received: they have changed amounts a couple of times, but the latest is the whole $1000 deposit, even though I was charged the fee and only received about $970. 

Stay tuned....

[sam9876]

You don't need proof of delivery for a car.

[lacemaker3]

@eddieo45, I'm really sorry that you're going through this, I hope it ends up OK (or at least better than it looks).

I wanted to comment about the payment, which has been charged back, to clear up some things.

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@eddieo45 wrote:

... he paid the $1000 deposit on my eBay listing, for which I was charged the 2.9% PayPal fee, then he "friends and family" PayPal'ed me the balance. ...

---

...the next day I got two emails from PayPal "We're reviewing a payment reversal..." for each of the payments, ... "We've completed our review....We’ve confirmed the transaction was unauthorized and have refunded $8,750.00...." My PayPal balance is now a negative $9700 or so, as the $1000 deposit is also "on hold". ...

... Oddly enough, a good 36 hours after the "case closed" emails I received a "Case Opened" email from PayPal, this time for the amount $9,004.05, which is what the $8750 would have cost him had he not sent it friends and family.

...

When money is sent "Friends & Family", it can be funded several ways: PayPal balance, bank account, or credit card, like any PayPal payment. The transaction won't be covered by buyer or seller protection, but if it was a credit card payment, then the owner of the card  can file an Unauthorized Use, which will result in a chargeback.

Friends & Family is not free if it was funded with a debit or credit card. The sender can decide who pays the fees when they send it, either the sender or the receiver of the payment. So this explains why the amount being charged back was more than you received, because the payment included PayPal fees paid by the sender.

There are no fees within the U.S. to send money to family and friends when you use only your PayPal balance or bank account, or a combination of your PayPal balance and bank account. There is a fee to send money as a personal payment using a debit or credit card.

What are the fees for PayPal accounts?

https://www.paypal.com/gi/smarthelp/article/what-are-the-fees-for-paypal-accounts-faq690

So this explains what happened, and how the scammer was able to do it. They F&F payment was made with a credit card, either stolen or used without authorization, or reported as unauthorized after the fact.  If there was an ex-spouse involved, then the scammer may very well have used a card he had access to, but no right to use. That appears to be the case, if he used his ex-wife's father's credit card, then the father will get the money back through the chargeback.

Unfortunately, there won't be any seller protection available, because the purchase was for a vehicle, as well as because of the Friends & Family aspect. That is why your proof of delivery doesn't matter. It is only needed when the transaction is eligible for seller protection. The credit card company is going to get the money back for their client from PayPal, and PayPal will get their money back from you.

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@eddieo45 wrote:

... a friend who sells cars for a living advised me to move the money out of the PayPal account and into my bank as soon as possible, which I did. ...

... My PayPal balance is now a negative $9700 or so, as the $1000 deposit is also "on hold". ... I tried to unlink my bank account info but was not allowed, but my bank assures me that PayPal cannot claw back the funds. ...

---

Unfortunately, as others have said, this will not protect you in the end. It may slow down the process, but PayPal will be able to get the money in the end. Either from your bank account, or by going through collections.

I hope that law enforcement are able to recover the car for you, but as others have said, it may already be gone. Hopefully, your insurance will be able to help.