USPS and ebay stop empty box fraud, but paypal then aids and abets the fraud

[bethw2222]

Someone bought a diamond watch of mine using buy it now.  There were numerous problems with the sale, but I will give just the basics of what happened here. The buyer took a long time to pay, requested shipping to an unconfirmed address and repeatedly asked about insurance on the package.  I eventually shipped it insured with signature confirmation to the confirmed address.  Two days after the buyer personally signed for the package, he opened a return case on ebay stating that the box was empty.  He also stated that he thought his mail carrier stole the watch out of the box.   I filed an insurance claim with the USPS.  A postal inspector investigated, and the buyer did not cooperateand.  The USPS denied the claim and opened a case of mail fraud against the buyer.  I then received a phone call from someone claiming to be a police officer from the town that the buyer lives in demanding that I refund the buyer his money since I shipped him and empty box.  If not, he said,   my local police were going to arrest me and take me away in handcuffs.  I hung up and dialed the number back, and it only gives a busy signal.  I reported all of this to ebay.  Then the case took a sudden twist.  The buyer proclaimed he miraculously "found" the watch, and needed to return it ASAP, because he needed the money.  No explanation of how or where he found it.  Ebay closed out this case, but then it got reopened with a twist.  The buyer reported that the watch was missing the diamonds, so it was not as described.  This was eventually closed but then appealed and changed to "the watch is rusty".  Eventually, after much stress and finally talking to someone with some common sense at ebay, the case was officially closed in my favor and the buyer was kicked off of ebay.  I thought the problems were over. 

  But then a case was opened up on paypal for the watch with the reason of "not as decribed, broken, and probably counterfeit".  I spoke to many people at paypal and explained the USPS case and the ebay case, and I uploaded documentation of all of it to paypal.  Paypals response is that anything that happened on ebay or with the USPS is not relevent to paypal.  The only thing that matters to paypal is what the buyer tells them.  They told me that as long as the buyer gets 3rd party confirmation supporting their claim, they win.  The fraud that the buyer tried to perpetrate with the USPS and ebay does not matter whatsoever to paypal. 

  Paypal is allowing and actually encouraging fraud by doing this.  They are not combatting fraud at all.  The buyer gets to try to fraudulently collect the insurance money by claiming the box was empty. If that doesnt work, all he needs to do is say get a 3rd party to say that the item is counterfeit and he gets the money back from paypal.  And if that doesnt work, he says it is broken and gets to return it for a full refund. 

  If a buyer falsely claims that a box is empty and tries unsuccessfully to get the money from insurance, he should never be allowed to open any other case.  Paypal should consider what happened with the USPS and on ebay, but they dont. 

Has anyone else had an experience like this?

[klassic*kids]

Sorry this happened to you Beth.  I am just fixing your post to ensure a better chance of people being able to read through it.  Hopefully someone will have a suggestion to your problem..

@bethw2222 wrote:

Someone bought a diamond watch of mine using buy it now.  There were numerous problems with the sale, but I will give just the basics of what happened here. 

The buyer took a long time to pay, requested shipping to an unconfirmed address and repeatedly asked about insurance on the package.  I eventually shipped it insured with signature confirmation to the confirmed address.  Two days after the buyer personally signed for the package, he opened a return case on ebay stating that the box was empty.  He also stated that he thought his mail carrier stole the watch out of the box.  

I filed an insurance claim with the USPS.  A postal inspector investigated, and the buyer did not cooperateand.  The USPS denied the claim and opened a case of mail fraud against the buyer.  I then received a phone call from someone claiming to be a police officer from the town that the buyer lives in demanding that I refund the buyer his money since I shipped him and empty box.  If not, he said,   my local police were going to arrest me and take me away in handcuffs.  I hung up and dialed the number back, and it only gives a busy signal. 

I reported all of this to ebay.  Then the case took a sudden twist.  The buyer proclaimed he miraculously "found" the watch, and needed to return it ASAP, because he needed the money.  No explanation of how or where he found it.  Ebay closed out this case, but then it got reopened with a twist.  The buyer reported that the watch was missing the diamonds, so it was not as described.  This was eventually closed but then appealed and changed to "the watch is rusty".  Eventually, after much stress and finally talking to someone with some common sense at ebay, the case was officially closed in my favor and the buyer was kicked off of ebay. 

I thought the problems were over. But then a case was opened up on paypal for the watch with the reason of "not as decribed, broken, and probably counterfeit".  I spoke to many people at paypal and explained the USPS case and the ebay case, and I uploaded documentation of all of it to paypal.  Paypals response is that anything that happened on ebay or with the USPS is not relevent to paypal.  The only thing that matters to paypal is what the buyer tells them.  They told me that as long as the buyer gets 3rd party confirmation supporting their claim, they win.  The fraud that the buyer tried to perpetrate with the USPS and ebay does not matter whatsoever to paypal. 

Paypal is allowing and actually encouraging fraud by doing this.  They are not combatting fraud at all.  The buyer gets to try to fraudulently collect the insurance money by claiming the box was empty. If that doesnt work, all he needs to do is say get a 3rd party to say that the item is counterfeit and he gets the money back from paypal.  And if that doesnt work, he says it is broken and gets to return it for a full refund. 

If a buyer falsely claims that a box is empty and tries unsuccessfully to get the money from insurance, he should never be allowed to open any other case.  Paypal should consider what happened with the USPS and on ebay, but they dont. 

Has anyone else had an experience like this?

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[bmullins2]

@bethw2222

I have experienced something like this but not with a highend item.  

eBay rulled in my favor 2 times.  Buyer didn't like the outcome, so opened up a PP case of INAD.

I called PP had them to call eBay because they had already rulled in my favor and that the item was  described. (this was even after they separated) and PP immediately closed the case in my favor. 

IMO They should go by what eBay is showing and how many cases he opened and take into concideration that a report was filed with USPS for mail fraud. 

Not sure how they do things now, but this has only been about 5 mths ago this happened to me.

Do you have proof this person was  removed from eBay if so, I would tell PP that as well.  Not sure it would help but you never know.  I got a great PP rep and he was very understanding and helpful.

~ Report back if anything changes 😞

[annadryl]

I've had to call Paypal a couple of times and they were great. It was unrelated to ebay, but their CS fixed the issues then and there. Have all the info ready and call Monday during regular business hours.  Sorry this happened Good luck~

[dhbookds]

as the buyer gets 3rd party confirmation supporting their claim

who confirmed the claim? 

[nowthatsjustducky]

And also, who verifies that the third party is a reliable source for confirmation?

As for the CSR's (very arrogant) claim that PayPal has nothing to do with this situation, they are likely very wrong.  They would be one of the parties named in a mail fraud case, and would likely be hit hard if this went to court (criminal, not civil) as aiding and abetting the buyer's fraudulent activities.

Sorry guys; you are not too big for the Feds to pound on you.  You will learn that some day, hopefully.

[bethw2222]

I took a screen shot of the "no longer  a registered user"  screen and uploaded it to paypal along with the mail fraud investigation paperwork from the USPS and all the info from ebay.  I also informed the manager at paypal that ebay trust and safety was willing to do a 3 way call with them to confirm the situation.  The paypal manager said that NONE of this matters for the paypal case because the paypal case is only about the watch being broken or counterfeit.  They dont care that the buyer  stated that he received an empty box at all.  The paypal reps even came up with their own reasons as to why the buyer may have magically "found" the stolen watch from an empty box.  They make their own excuses at paypal for the scammer if the scammer cant think up their own.

[dhbookds]

Still want to know who confirmed..........

paypal usually requires a return from the buyer (their dime)........so did you get it back?

[*eponymous*]

Paypals response is that anything that happened on ebay or with the USPS is not relevent to paypal.  The only thing that matters to paypal is what the buyer tells them.  They told me that as long as the buyer gets 3rd party confirmation supporting their claim, they win.  The fraud that the buyer tried to perpetrate with the USPS and ebay does not matter whatsoever to paypal

Every bit of that is accurate and conforms to federal consumer laws.

eBay and PayPal are separate entities and may not collude to deny consumer protection to buyers.

Whatever happens on eBay, stays on eBay!

The buyer probably had a third option had they lost with PayPal - a chargeback.

Know your risks - really know and accept them - before you list. Most problems posted on the boards are from sellers who do not know the risks involved in selling - and they sure don't know laws that protect consumers.  It is for those reasons that the smaller-volume, inexperienced, and/or marginalized seller leaves eBay, with the belief that they have gotten a raw deal.

[*eponymous*]

I took a screen shot of the "no longer  a registered user" 

eBay and PayPal are limited in what they can cooperate on, and private information concerning administrative action taken by eBay is not something PayPal is privy to.

Besides, eBay NARUed a username - not a person.

[coolections]

So did you get the watch back ? How much did the watch sell for ? You also have the buyer's address correct ? If you get he watch back and it is not the same watch then you need to take the buyer to court. Paypal cannot verify if the watch is broken or counterfeit.

[moondogblues]

Just another seller taking it in the xxxxxx...epon, just stop.

[tiqui1999]

They have to return the watch. And if they don't use delivery confirmation, I would say I never got it. Hate it, but I would.  

Then, I would tell Paypal that it's damaged or not the same watch when it comes back and make the scammer prove it is.  I would also find a lawyer or figure out how to file a civil suit against this buyer. People like this need to learn a lesson.

[coolections]

@tiqui1999

So you would get the watch back and then commit fraud which is the same thing you are complaining about this buyer for ? Even though you're are not even sure this buyer is a fraud. OK

[kitchen-topia]

Paragraphs are your friend.

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bethw2222 wrote:

Someone bought a diamond watch of mine using buy it now.  There were numerous problems with the sale, but I will give just the basics of what happened here. The buyer took a long time to pay, requested shipping to an unconfirmed address and repeatedly asked about insurance on the package.  I eventually shipped it insured with signature confirmation to the confirmed address.  Two days after the buyer personally signed for the package, he opened a return case on ebay stating that the box was empty.  He also stated that he thought his mail carrier stole the watch out of the box.   I filed an insurance claim with the USPS.  A postal inspector investigated, and the buyer did not cooperateand.  The USPS denied the claim and opened a case of mail fraud against the buyer.  I then received a phone call from someone claiming to be a police officer from the town that the buyer lives in demanding that I refund the buyer his money since I shipped him and empty box.  If not, he said,   my local police were going to arrest me and take me away in handcuffs.  I hung up and dialed the number back, and it only gives a busy signal.  I reported all of this to ebay.  Then the case took a sudden twist.  The buyer proclaimed he miraculously "found" the watch, and needed to return it ASAP, because he needed the money.  No explanation of how or where he found it.  Ebay closed out this case, but then it got reopened with a twist.  The buyer reported that the watch was missing the diamonds, so it was not as described.  This was eventually closed but then appealed and changed to "the watch is rusty".  Eventually, after much stress and finally talking to someone with some common sense at ebay, the case was officially closed in my favor and the buyer was kicked off of ebay.  I thought the problems were over. 

  But then a case was opened up on paypal for the watch with the reason of "not as decribed, broken, and probably counterfeit".  I spoke to many people at paypal and explained the USPS case and the ebay case, and I uploaded documentation of all of it to paypal.  Paypals response is that anything that happened on ebay or with the USPS is not relevent to paypal.  The only thing that matters to paypal is what the buyer tells them.  They told me that as long as the buyer gets 3rd party confirmation supporting their claim, they win.  The fraud that the buyer tried to perpetrate with the USPS and ebay does not matter whatsoever to paypal. 

  Paypal is allowing and actually encouraging fraud by doing this.  They are not combatting fraud at all.  The buyer gets to try to fraudulently collect the insurance money by claiming the box was empty. If that doesnt work, all he needs to do is say get a 3rd party to say that the item is counterfeit and he gets the money back from paypal.  And if that doesnt work, he says it is broken and gets to return it for a full refund. 

  If a buyer falsely claims that a box is empty and tries unsuccessfully to get the money from insurance, he should never be allowed to open any other case.  Paypal should consider what happened with the USPS and on ebay, but they dont. 

Has anyone else had an experience like this?

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