From the chat with Griff today

[siayan]

This is a surprise to me. Only use eBay messages.

""Happy to clarify! To quote the Knowledge Base article I shared previously:

"A partial refund can lead to a defect if there are no eBay messages between you and your customer that show the reason for the refund."

To rephrase this, if there is communication on eBay explaining the reason for the partial refund, a defect will not be recorded ""

[nawlinsron2]

What rational mind considers a $2 shipping refund an AUTOMATIC defect?

That's like saying anybody who knocks on your door should be tasered.

[gramophone-georg]

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@siayan wrote:

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@threshold.sales.group wrote:

What exactly is this partial refund defect called? 

In the official page on seller standards there are two defects listed:

1. Out of stock defects

2. Case closed without resolution defects

I can't find anything published on the site - especially in the detailed information about what constitutes seller defects & rating seller performance about partial refund defects - is there a link to the official policy that folks are missing? 

---

I think we have a winner, "What exactly is this partial refund defect called? "

Answer- A Partial Refund Defect

I think we have the answer and I am good with that. I know where I stand.

But I would really like to know

trinton@ebay

Come on Trinton, did you really know that before yesterday? A simple yes or no would do.

---

Does it matter? "Policies? We don't need no steenkin' policies!"

[siayan]

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@gramophone-georg wrote:

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@siayan wrote:

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@threshold.sales.group wrote:

What exactly is this partial refund defect called? 

In the official page on seller standards there are two defects listed:

1. Out of stock defects

2. Case closed without resolution defects

I can't find anything published on the site - especially in the detailed information about what constitutes seller defects & rating seller performance about partial refund defects - is there a link to the official policy that folks are missing? 

---

I think we have a winner, "What exactly is this partial refund defect called? "

Answer- A Partial Refund Defect

I think we have the answer and I am good with that. I know where I stand.

But I would really like to know

trinton@ebay

Come on Trinton, did you really know that before yesterday? A simple yes or no would do.

---

Does it matter? "Policies? We don't need no steenkin' policies!"

---

Hey it's stuff like this that keeps all of us secret eBay employees in a job here on the boards.

wink, wink

[sharingtheland]

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@tunicaslot wrote:

sharing - I did indeed read your posts and I can tell you that I have - like bubble - refunded through Paypal is shipping was less than stated. I simply put a note in the PAYPAL refund - that too much was charged for shipping and I am refunding that portion. 

I have never to this point - contacted a buyer through Ebay messages before doing that and I have never received a defect for doing a partial refund of shipping costs this way. In the future - I will cover myself and notify the buyer through Ebay messages as well as putting a note in the Paypal transaction.

Did you receive a defect for doing the same thing or is this a post you read written by another seller that this happened to? Since Trinton has clarified it - I'll follow procedure - had I received a defect - I would have taken it up with Trinton or Alan and find out what the issue is as it wasn't explained very well.

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Tunica - I have never received a defect (well, who knows - secret policy, secret defect) for refunding shipping costs.

I have a message in some of my descriptions, based on the item's weight and cost, that I will refund any excess shipping paid.  I send an ebay message - always have, every sale - the day I ship and will put a "p.s. refunded some shipping cost to your paypal account" in that message.  And I add that as a note in the paypal transaction page.

So, no, this does not affect me.  I simply don't believe this "policy" ever existed and Trinton is kind of mixed up on something.

My examples still stand:

A partial refund for a piece of junk that doesn't work - no defect if buyer complains and seller responds in ebay messages (or paypal, we assume).

A partial refund for overpayment of shipping, as a courtesy and excellent sales tactic, with no message is a defect ?

Does "I will refund excess shipping" stated in the listing exonerate one from this invisible defect?  

All this will do is lead to a mass of paypal "send money" transactions; can ebay see those, too?

Signed,

Still Cheesed But Heading To The Links As Soon As The Shipping Department Returns From The Post Office

(and one of the packages is going to a buyer who will receive $4 from me tonight because she happens to live closer than 8 postal zones away)

[sharingtheland]

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@nawlinsron2 wrote:
What rational mind considers a $2 shipping refund an AUTOMATIC defect?

That's like saying anybody who knocks on your door should be tasered.

---

Not if the person has an Amazon Anti-Taser Shield.  Available for only $229 on Cyber Monday.

[Anonymous]

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@lookng2015 wrote:

What about when the sign that something went wrong is that eBay's cart failed to allow the buyer to Request a total? Not exactly the seller's fault if the buyer then has to pay full shipping and be partially refunded is it?

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It isn't a matter of fault - there are a variety of situations that are not anyone's fault, but still fall under the seller's responsibility. If you ship an item and it is lost in transit, this is not your fault. But it would be your responsibility to refund the buyer or replace the item. A cart error is not your fault, and eBay would work with you to get an appropriate credit and we appreciate you working with your buyer to get the problem resolved. Just communicate with them so we are aware.

@sharingtheland, if a buyer receives a misrepresented item they should open a Return Request. The seller can issue a partial refund through the case to resolve the buyer's concerns. This would not record a defect if eBay is not asked to step in to make a decision. The Return Request would give us a record of what the concern is - refunding directly through PayPal with no explination would not give us this same information. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, a buyer and seller can discuss a partial refund through messaging without any issues. This is not contact information. We are only concerned with possible contact information being shared. A buyer and seller can communicate about a discount shipping price prior to purchase. Additionally, let me know how I can work with you on your doubts - I'm happy to give you a call if you would like to discuss this in more detail. I can see a variety of doubts have been raised here on this thread and can only reiterate that I confirmed the information I have shared here before posting the recent Knowledge Base article on issuing partial refunds.

@threshold.sales.group and @siayan, this would be appear as an Out of Stock defect.

@gramophone-georg, our attention on this issue is designed to identify signs of abuse or transactions that may lead to a buyer not returning to the site. I know that you are not pleased with these expectations and processes, but they are in place to strengthen our Community, keep buyer's returning to the site and increase sales for our sellers. Your success is our success and we have identified situations that are related to a buyer leaving eBay for other venues. This is why we record defects and take appropriate action when we find there may be behaviors harming our site.

[gramophone-georg]

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@Anonymous wrote:

---

@lookng2015 wrote:

What about when the sign that something went wrong is that eBay's cart failed to allow the buyer to Request a total? Not exactly the seller's fault if the buyer then has to pay full shipping and be partially refunded is it?

---

It isn't a matter of fault - there are a variety of situations that are not anyone's fault, but still fall under the seller's responsibility. If you ship an item and it is lost in transit, this is not your fault. But it would be your responsibility to refund the buyer or replace the item. A cart error is not your fault, and eBay would work with you to get an appropriate credit and we appreciate you working with your buyer to get the problem resolved. Just communicate with them so we are aware.

@sharingtheland, if a buyer receives a misrepresented item they should open a Return Request. The seller can issue a partial refund through the case to resolve the buyer's concerns. This would not record a defect if eBay is not asked to step in to make a decision. The Return Request would give us a record of what the concern is - refunding directly through PayPal with no explination would not give us this same information. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, a buyer and seller can discuss a partial refund through messaging without any issues. This is not contact information. We are only concerned with possible contact information being shared. A buyer and seller can communicate about a discount shipping price prior to purchase. Additionally, let me know how I can work with you on your doubts - I'm happy to give you a call if you would like to discuss this in more detail. I can see a variety of doubts have been raised here on this thread and can only reiterate that I confirmed the information I have shared here before posting the recent Knowledge Base article on issuing partial refunds.

@threshold.sales.group and @siayan, this would be appear as an Out of Stock defect.

@gramophone-georg, our attention on this issue is designed to identify signs of abuse or transactions that may lead to a buyer not returning to the site. I know that you are not pleased with these expectations and processes, but they are in place to strengthen our Community, keep buyer's returning to the site and increase sales for our sellers. Your success is our success and we have identified situations that are related to a buyer leaving eBay for other venues. This is why we record defects and take appropriate action when we find there may be behaviors harming our site.

---

Somebody at eBay needs to have some working experience in retail or customer service, If eBay is worried about behaviors that harm the site, a good look in the mirror is a great first step. ebay needs to heal itself before worrying about micromanaging their paying customers and the buyers like me who buy from them.

Sorry if this isn't what they want to hear, but it's the harsh reality, Trinton. I've been an eBayer since the 1990s, on an earlier ID than this one too, and eBay, which used to be nothing but fun, is now a drag between trying to outguess the "AI" of Search and seeing things change constantly minute to minute. Calculated shipping that works yesterday but not today, having to search Google to find things the identical eBay search wouldn't show me, buying things "located in USA" that ship from China, all the fakes and counterfeits, the constant site glitches and "Oops! Something went wrong- please try again later!" messages, shopping carts that don't work, combined shipping that doesn't work... and now eBay is handing out defects  for partials? All eBay is doing with all these layers of policy is forcing sellers to pay for eBay's mistakes.

[siayan]

So if I understand it right if a seller has a problem with a buyer they may try to convince the buyer that it can be handled at PayPal. The use the email system and the buyer, if new, assumes that is the only recourse. The seller issues a partial and tells the buyer sorry, thats all I will do.

This is handling outside of eBay and may make the buyer unhappy so eBay wants all refunds, partial and full to go through eBay.

My take on this is it may only pop out if a buyer complains, then a defect. I see the light.

[do.you.read.me]

If ebay would fix their cart and stop forcing IPR this conversation would not even need to be here.

[gramophone-georg]

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@do.you.read.me wrote:

If ebay would fix their cart and stop forcing IPR this conversation would not even need to be here.

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Things like this, YES. Precisely  my point. eBay creates problems with the constant fiddling, THEN slams sellers for trying to do what's right by their buyers after the fact when eBay caused the problem in the first place.

eBay needs to make the site work and then get out of the way and let business be done.

[gramophone-georg]

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@siayan wrote:

So if I understand it right if a seller has a problem with a buyer they may try to convince the buyer that it can be handled at PayPal. The use the email system and the buyer, if new, assumes that is the only recourse. The seller issues a partial and tells the buyer sorry, thats all I will do.

This is handling outside of eBay and may make the buyer unhappy so eBay wants all refunds, partial and full to go through eBay.

My take on this is it may only pop out if a buyer complains, then a defect. I see the light.

---

I have to chortle when the same venue that's constantly telling sellers to accept major losses as "a cost of doing business" conveniently forgets that philosophy when the shoe is on the other foot over a potential penny or two.

How about a philosopy in which we keep sellers so busy packing and shipping that they don't have time to worry about scheming to get out of paying a buck or two in fees? Now THAT is how to handle the problem!

But no, instead eBay hides sellers in search and buries them with non income generating busywork.

[do.you.read.me]

I seriously doubt my sanity at times, coming in here to state the obvious in regard to ebay's blind disregard for their self imposed issues.  It's appalling the way they treat their users. 

I would love to start selling here again, but it's so cumbersome to work through all the glitches, page clicks, hidden infractions and downright unfriendly atmosphere to work with customers in an effort to make them happy, work with the buyers, and keep them coming back.   Which was actually my previous business model, undermined by all these sale-killing tactics.

[nawlinsron2]

I feel like Br'er Rabbit after a bout with the tar baby when I leave here...

[gramophone-georg]

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@do.you.read.me wrote:

I seriously doubt my sanity at times, coming in here to state the obvious in regard to ebay's blind disregard for their self imposed issues.  It's appalling the way they treat their users. 

I would love to start selling here again, but it's so cumbersome to work through all the glitches, page clicks, hidden infractions and downright unfriendly atmosphere to work with customers in an effort to make them happy, work with the buyers, and keep them coming back.   Which was actually my previous business model, undermined by all these sale-killing tactics.

---

Do.you., you and I are on the same page here. I remember a time when I had things for sale on eBay, at an antique mall, and at my German car repair shop. If I had a customer at the antique mall wavering on a potential big purchase, you know how I'd clinch the deal in the early eBay days? I'd tell them "Tell you what. I'll list it on eBay for you. That way you can leave me bad feedback for all my eBay customers to see if anything goes wrong".

Lots of times, that worked! I even got new members signed up for eBay that way. Wow, take an off site deal and actually move it ON EBAY to give the buyer more confidence? Yes, that's how it WAS. Didn't mind one bit paying the fees, either.

After eBay Motors started up, did this a lot with cars and parts, too.

Back then, I had a Watts line to my shop. I posted the number in all my eBay listings. I added a lot of sales ON EBAY that way, too.

Do this today? LOL. I could pay a mule to kick me and it would be less expensive.

[odditiesandantiquities1]

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@gramophone-georg wrote:

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@Anonymous wrote:

---

@lookng2015 wrote:

What about when the sign that something went wrong is that eBay's cart failed to allow the buyer to Request a total? Not exactly the seller's fault if the buyer then has to pay full shipping and be partially refunded is it?

---

It isn't a matter of fault - there are a variety of situations that are not anyone's fault, but still fall under the seller's responsibility. If you ship an item and it is lost in transit, this is not your fault. But it would be your responsibility to refund the buyer or replace the item. A cart error is not your fault, and eBay would work with you to get an appropriate credit and we appreciate you working with your buyer to get the problem resolved. Just communicate with them so we are aware.

@sharingtheland, if a buyer receives a misrepresented item they should open a Return Request. The seller can issue a partial refund through the case to resolve the buyer's concerns. This would not record a defect if eBay is not asked to step in to make a decision. The Return Request would give us a record of what the concern is - refunding directly through PayPal with no explination would not give us this same information. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, a buyer and seller can discuss a partial refund through messaging without any issues. This is not contact information. We are only concerned with possible contact information being shared. A buyer and seller can communicate about a discount shipping price prior to purchase. Additionally, let me know how I can work with you on your doubts - I'm happy to give you a call if you would like to discuss this in more detail. I can see a variety of doubts have been raised here on this thread and can only reiterate that I confirmed the information I have shared here before posting the recent Knowledge Base article on issuing partial refunds.

@threshold.sales.group and @siayan, this would be appear as an Out of Stock defect.

@gramophone-georg, our attention on this issue is designed to identify signs of abuse or transactions that may lead to a buyer not returning to the site. I know that you are not pleased with these expectations and processes, but they are in place to strengthen our Community, keep buyer's returning to the site and increase sales for our sellers. Your success is our success and we have identified situations that are related to a buyer leaving eBay for other venues. This is why we record defects and take appropriate action when we find there may be behaviors harming our site.

---

Somebody at eBay needs to have some working experience in retail or customer service, If eBay is worried about behaviors that harm the site, a good look in the mirror is a great first step. ebay needs to heal itself before worrying about micromanaging their paying customers and the buyers like me who buy from them.

Sorry if this isn't what they want to hear, but it's the harsh reality, Trinton. I've been an eBayer since the 1990s, on an earlier ID than this one too, and eBay, which used to be nothing but fun, is now a drag between trying to outguess the "AI" of Search and seeing things change constantly minute to minute. Calculated shipping that works yesterday but not today, having to search Google to find things the identical eBay search wouldn't show me, buying things "located in USA" that ship from China, all the fakes and counterfeits, the constant site glitches and "Oops! Something went wrong- please try again later!" messages, shopping carts that don't work, combined shipping that doesn't work... and now eBay is handing out defects  for partials? All eBay is doing with all these layers of policy is forcing sellers to pay for eBay's mistakes.

---

Georg. Thank you for that very consise response to Tristin. I don't think anyone could have said it better. Having been on here since 2006 makes me a newbie, relatively but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this year things have slid like an avalanche. An avalanche of oopsy's. gotcha, gonna getcha, bad seller, we punish, your fault, your fault, your fault. 

I wish in understood how so many can be so blind, but maybe there's something in the water out there. I'll just continue to drink my well water. I know what's in that.