Big Ticket Items Seller Dispute ($6000)

[themagicones]

I'm a longtime Ebay seller but have never had to go through a dispute before and I'm super nervous. I know I did everything right and have tons of ammunition but I've heard horror stories in the past. So here's the deal. I sold an ebay user with low feedback a $6000 computer (). He broke it. How do I know? I was talked into travelling to him (a $200 expense on my end) to see if I could fix it. Before testing it out he completely deconstructed it and reassembled it (this with, he admits it, 0 experience) onto a frame he welded in his garage. He has said that it quite literally caught on fire. He tried doing the same thing again and caught another replacement part on fire. I have built over 100 of these and have never even come close to setting one on fire. The frame he built for it was lackluster and had sawdust all over it. I actually snapped a picture just in case it may help my case. I spoke with an ebay rep on the phone and they said even though I say in my item description NO RETURNS that the customer can still return the product pretty much at any time if he deems it defective. I am just sick with worry. He has now had possession of it for three weeks.

Anways, he wants a refund. I obviously can't give that to him because I'll be getting back broken equipment. To prove my "case" I have computer generated logs created showing that it was working at ship date, a minute video showing it was working at ship date discussing where and who it was sold to, and two weeks of successful usage recorded online with very little downtime. I got shipping insurance, have sold these before with no issues, and have a great, high-feedback sellers account. I also recorded our entire hour-long discussion and troubleshooting session today where he says multiple times he has no experience, did not follow the instructions manual, and it caught fire. Though this was done in stealth mode so I'm not sure if I can use it. 

Is there anything else I can do? What are my odds in not having to fork over the $6000 and get back a pile of charred computer components?

I appreciate the help!

D

[luckythewinner]

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. 

• You pay $6,000 for a wedding dress. 
• It arrives covered in mud and partially torn. 
• You convinvce the seller to travel to your house to fix it. 
• The seller tells you it was your fault because you used it as a doormat before the wedding. 
• You file a dispute saying the item was not as described. 
• The seller shows eBay a picture of a new wedding dress, and tells eBay that is what he shipped
• The seller shows ebay another picture of a muddy, ripped dress sitting on the floor in front of a door, and tells eBay that is what he saw when he visited your house. 

As a buyer, you would be outraged that eBay beleived the seller just because he had supplied two photos misrepresenting the item. 

The reality is: 

• eBay has no idea what a seller ships (regardless of 'evidence') 
• eBay has no idea what a buyer receives (regardless of 'evidence') 
• eBay has no idea what a buyer returns (regardless of 'evidence') 
• eBay has no idea what a seller recieves as a return (regardless of 'evidence') 

If you have messages in your eBay Messages from the buyer admitting that he acted in a way that negates his ability to return the item, you will need to call eBay, have them look at the messages, and rule on the claim while you are on the phone with them. 

If you do not have eBay messages, the eBay user agreement says that you have agreed to let eBay make the final decision on the return. 

[yankee517]

Just get the buyer to admit that he changed anything with the item through eBay messaging, that is all you need.

[a_c_green]

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@luckythewinner wrote:

The reality is: 

• eBay has no idea what a seller ships (regardless of 'evidence') 
• eBay has no idea what a buyer receives (regardless of 'evidence') 
• eBay has no idea what a buyer returns (regardless of 'evidence') 
• eBay has no idea what a seller recieves as a return (regardless of 'evidence') 

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eBay's usual position, if I remember right, is that because they don't know who to believe, their only option is to roll everything back to where it started, which is with the buyer having his money and you having your item. It doesn't matter if the item is now used, damaged or destroyed, because they can't decide who was really at fault. 

That's their default position, so it's up to you to try to change it, such as via messages from the buyer that state that he took it apart, it "caught on fire" after that, etc. Photos and (especially) video of what you shipped or how you packed it (or unpacked it later) are not going to be looked at. The ball is in your court, and hopefully you can get someone in authority to see it your way. That is not going to happen automatically; you're going to need to advocate for yourself here. Good luck.

[ittybitnot]

 What are my odds in not having to fork over the $6000 and get back a pile of charred computer components?

Basically, slim to none. 

[lewisburggold]

Wow.    I hope you win.  There should be a good chance that you will.  With ebay and pay pal.   That is a horror story that no one want to live through.   Props to you for going out there to try to help them.   Most sellers would not.    Good luck.     Best regards

[lookng2015]

He ALTERED it so that should (not e I say should) make his buyer protection null and void. Of course it make take you a few tries to get a CSR with enough sense to see this.

[lhans]

If ebay or paypal allows a refund to the buyer, I would file a claim in court and sue the buyer for damages.

[slati_2013]

That is not an apt analogy. The OP sells rigs made to mine cryptocurrency. Bitcoins stuff. The rig arrived ready to use as it was. The buyer however decided he wanted it set up in a particular way. The best way I can put this is someone buys a TV set and decides he wants to hang it on the wall. With no experience, he starts drilling holes in the TV and wall and before long he has destroyed the TV. Now he wants to return it for a refund.  Had he used the TV on a normal stand, there would have been no issue. Same thing in this case. 

[retrose1]

I am of the opinion that the buyer stripped it of parts and is going to get a freebie on them.  Or send back his broke one.  If he has zero experience, then why would he not just plug it in and get started?

OP, unless the buyer admitted in an ebay message that he altered the item, you will lose any case - no matter what proof you think you have.  In a buyer says/seller says situation ebay will back the buyer on just their word - they do not have to submit proof.  Your pictures and video evidence will be rejected by ebay because you can not prove that the pic of the item is the item you sent.

ebay CS are notorious for telling a seller what they want to hear to get them off the phone.  They will even make promises they will not keep.

You should have taken a look at ebay's money back guarantee and then figured out how that will protect you in a fraud situation before you listed an item worth more than $50 on ebay.  And also looked up how many scams are committed against sellers of high dollar items selling them with no returns.

If I were you, I would brush up on fraud and civil case law in your area so that you can file reports with the police when ebay gives the buyer back the money out of your account, and how to file a real civil case that the court will take a look at your evidence and judge it without the bias of how many more fees will a happy scammer generate for them.

[lancelotme]

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Unfortunately, the seller doesn't have access to the credit card company.

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this is a problem when you accept payment via Paypal,esp for item of $6k.

You have no access to his cc issuer and you have to rely on Paypal to forward your arguments to his cc issuer and Paypal would not tell you what your buyer said to his cc issuer and what his cc issuer said to Paypal,

given the high volume of disputes and chargebacks Paypal has to deal with ,many cases are just handled by robot ,it would not fight for you.

You are at the mercy of his cc issuer,if you lose,you also pay $20 chargeback fee.

In the future,consider getting a merchant account from a bank which would use one of the 3 gateways acceptable to Ebay.

You discount fee would be lower,2.9% Paypal fee is for indviduals ,you would get a lower fee 1-2%.

and your merchant account provider will fight for you and relay what his cc issuer said and what your buyer told his cc issuer.

As for this case,you still have a better than 50% chance of winning,the fact that he modified your machine and you travelled to his home to help him and saw he has welded a frame in his garage  ,just make sure you narrate your case clearly and in chornological order,the guy/gal who decides your case is a clerk,if you have pictures and conversations,include them and mark them as exibit i,II etc 

[lancelotme]

question-
if he wins on Ebay and buyer goes to Paypal,Ebay would do nothing.
But if OP wins on Paypal and buyer goes to cc issuer and win,would Paypal protect him and eat the chargeback?
But knowing Paypal and the fact it is $6k,Paypal may wriggle out of it

[missjen831]

Glad to see you here @retrose1! I wondered you were! 

[themagicones]

He states that he built a new stand for it and he is having trouble assembling it. If that doesn't prove that he has unassembled it I don't know what does. We do have a witness in the computer store owner who just so happens to be a police officer (showed me his badge yesterday). He didn't see the PC when I shipped it but I think it's apparent from the pictures I listed the item under that it is vastly different from what I advertised to be sending. Would this not be admitting to have altered the item?

The stand also has sawdust/plywood on it with computer parts resting on it! Who in their right mind would ship something like that much less rest a computer on top of it??? I also have other customers that I think would vouch for the PC I sent them being identical to the one this man (who wants his money back) received. I also have package dimensions from the receipt, weight, e.t.c. and a witness at the post office! This metal stand would have easily added 20 lbs to the entire package weight and the size would have rendered the package unshippable in the box.

He struggled for a week trying to plug in the CPU cord from the Power Supply to the Motherboard. I know some people don't know computers but it would take the average person 5 minutes to figure out. He also caught the thing on fire 2x and admits it. 

Last night he asked me "So how much does the computer make everyday" -- I told him I'm not sure because I hadn't checked in a few days but when I listed them item it was generating about $25 a day. I think he's having buyer's remorse and trying to pawn it off on me. He also blamed me for losing him Three weeks worth of profit.

Here are a few of the messages that may help my case:

"Ok we have a stand built and trying to put it together, how do we know which one is the main one to plug into to the monitor for displaying?"

"No we have never built a computer. We think we might have it ready. CPU power by mother board all plugs in power supply. Also why doesn't everything on the power supply plug in" -- This is where he blew it up just fyi. I'm assuming he plugged everything into it even though I told him 3x not to.

"Here is what we were told by a professional:  Only thing I can do at this point is set up a pc, individually test every card and make sure they are good. If they are change the power supplies, then to the ram, then to the processor. I’m kind of at a loss for the first time cause I know everything is right.
Can we send this back and get our money back?"

[lancelotme]

try to get him to tell you what he has done from the day he received the item,and give it to Paypal to prove he has modified the item and it is no longer resalable.
just make him to tell you what he has done to your computer in one email.
pieces of emails here and there and the policeman said this and that wont work.

[lancelotme]

is he buying your computer to offer mining contracts ?
I see some sellers doing so,like 49.99 for 24 hours mining on Ebay?