eBay

corpseheads · ‎06-08-2017

My own opinion is NOBODY!!!

Having said that, A little over a year ago I was told by a particular manufacturer all sellers had to sell at a particular MAP(Minimum Advertised Price), so I complied. All this time later I couldn't help but notice many others have not complied. $XX.XX to me means $XX.XX not $MX.XX or even $XX.XW. When I complain my complaints involve run around blah blah like they can't keep up with all the new sellers or they refuse to address a specific seller.

Next step call Ebay and ask them and point out a greater problem on Ebay and that is people selling below, at or just above cost and how this hurts product lines and kills honest sellers and in the end no one makes a profit. Ebay rep. tells me the seller has a "managed account" and has special permission to sell below the MAP. For starters I can't believe what I am hearing and why this rep would reveal ANY information to me. I ask her if she's just talking in general or she knows for a fact this is true. She claimed the latter and claimed she was reading the permission from her sources. Again I'm astounded she would reveal this. It does not make a seller feel better to have an Ebay rep tell me this in fact it outrages me and makes me livid.

So you take that info to the company and they deny it and say the Rep doesn't know what she's talking about. They want proof. All the while they are sidetracking they never address the seller or even sellers selling below the MAP. That is the thing that bothers me the most. I happened to know for a fact I was the first person to list the item on Ebay and have sold more than the other seller. You or I'd think it would be me with any special privileges.

So I actually think both the manufacturer and ebay were lying to me. What the exact truth is I don't know. Ebay is full of this sort of nonsense. This includes bootlegs, counterfeits and bait and switch techniques by passing off a counterfeit using stock images from a different product. Listed a new item about a week ago that I can get for $20 wholesale. I go look at my competitors and see one selling the item for $20 free shipping. Who is that? Secret manufacturer ebay handle? Like I said, I trust em as far as I can throw em.

trukfixer1 · ‎06-08-2017

Manufacturers cannot by law control prices that something is sold at. the best they can do is require a MAP - Minimum ADVERTISED price as part of their authorized dealer contract. Dealers advertising below that price (or selling online when their contract prohibits it) are subject to having their contract cancelled. But there are many ways around that - once the authorized dealer sells the product no one has any say in what happens to it after that but the "owner" so all a dealer would have to do is "sell" the product to an individual at or below cost (maybe dealer got it on sale or promotion) and that individual can then sell at whatever they want . Some dealerships book in whole products to maintain their contract (which can specify minimum volume of purchase) and liquidate the excess... and whoever buys up that liquidated inventory can sell it at whatever they want, since they do not have a manufacturer's contract. Some manufacturers will specify that warranty is VOID and non transferrable except to the original purchaser who buys from an authorized dealer so many of those low-ball products will have no warranty coverage... so it is a case of buyer beware.

Nothing anyone can do about that really... Trying to control prices is a violation of federal law.

corpseheads · ‎06-08-2017

Not exactly according to the supreme court. There are many items out there that delaers are forced to sell for at a specific price. If they go below they can be cut off. Why even ebay told me that they will comply with any wish from a manufacturer to have items removed if they violate a certain price.

In one instance the item is brand new and the seller appears to be selling below cost. All their other items are low ball prices. I hope you're not actually trying to suggest this is right as in false terms like "free market capitalism"? These are new items and the integrity of the product is at stake. This whole mentality comes from foreign government backed sellers who are using consumerism as warfare. This practice is copied by shooting star wannabes.

All a manufacturer really has to do is file a DMCA. That's if they cared. They seem to all have favorites and only attack individuals with demands(in my industry). I could be talking with them on the phone and asking them if they enforce and they say yes and I say well what about all these listings on Ebay??? It's a small wonder that they take so long to get new product in they're trying to feed a wholesale/retail market.

If you get say a brand new costume for $20 you should not be allowed to sell at cost or below cost or a small profit because you're of a communist mentality. This is also a game ebay encourages and they're already getting sued for violation of the rico act. This isn't a game and some of us are looking for a little more than a bowl of rice a day.

trukfixer1 · ‎06-08-2017

"There are many items out there that delaers are forced to sell for at a specific price. If they go below they can be cut off. "

- That is the key to it - if they signed a contract with the manufacturer including the MAP Provision, they can be cut off from further supply.

" In one instance the item is brand new and the seller appears to be selling below cost. All their other items are low ball prices. I hope you're not actually trying to suggest this is right as in false terms like "free market capitalism"?"

Correct - they can sell it for whatever they want - It is rare but manufacturers can do a buy-back but more often than not they simply cancel the contract if a violation happens. Or, the dealer buys a bunch of stuff, it does not sell at MAP , they voluntarily cancel, they are no longer a dealer but they have leftover inventory they can sell it for whatever they want.

All a manufacturer really has to do is file a DMCA. That's if they cared.

- That's questionable if they can enforce it - First sale doctrine comes into play here if they did not do a buy-back as noted, then the former dealer owns the goods in question and can do what they want with it - Manufacturer can of course refuse to honor any warranty since it was not sold by an authorized dealer - as noted earlier, that is a case of buyer beware. They CAN enforce DMCA if the listing itself is a violation of their IP rights, but if the seller came by the product legitimately they have no enforcement options other than not honoring warranty on the product. Can't use DMCA to block someone from legally selling a product they purchased fair and square, if it is otherwise legal to sell and within ebay's rules.

It is indeed a free market economy - some dealers may be selling excess product or whatever they have left on hand at a loss just to get rid of it (it is a legitimate strategy - we have done this many times - it is called "liquidation" - turn the inventory into whatever cash flow you can to use the cash to buy inventory that DOES sell)

Complain all you like, but if you expect a manufacturer to police the sale of every one of their products they'd never get anything done. Just like someone could buy a truckload of overstock from a mass market chain for pennies on the dollar - they would not care about MAP, or have any need to do so.

corpseheads · ‎06-08-2017

I'm not talking about overstock. I'm talking about in many instances sellers dropshipping and setting their prices at say $1 profit.

If the seller is using their images they can go that route(DMCA). Ebay again also told me they remove listings for MAP violations.

People in my industry don't have contracts in the sense where every policy is clearly laid out and agreed to. I see a wild west show, collusion, and all sort of other games. So a manufacturer can refuse to sell to you. A distributor can refuse to ship to you or to your customers.

I have not really seen a clear MAP policy. If the MAP is $100 does that mean I am in total complience if I have the price set at $100 but off a 10% discount? How about codeless coupons? Volume discounts? Are those all typical complient practices? If the MAP is $100 am I complient if I sell it for $80 + $20 S&H? These are the things I see and don't think there is any order.

I don't really think this is price fixing. It's not like other competitors are approaching me and say let's get together and corner the market.

trukfixer1 · ‎06-08-2017

Overstock is just one example - and the key word is "Advertised" part of Minimum Advertised Price - Does not mean you sell it at that price. If MAP is $100 you can advertise the product at that price but you can always say "stop by the store and mention this ad for our best price" or "20% off on selected items" in your ad and still be in compliance.

Could list it on ebay with a "Buy It NOW" price of $100 and then send it to auction for $50 and sell to highest bidder and still be in compliance in most cases (depends on your supplier agreement - if you have a supplier that sells to you just because you might have a tax license, business license, or a checkbook, you need to find different suppliers, cause they are just retailers selling at lowball prices.

any legit manufacturer or wholesaler that seriously wants to build a dealer network is going to have contracts that spell out what you can and cannot do , how you may advertise or promote their brand, and spell out the penalties for not honoring the stuff you agreed to, and usually they have a fairly high minimum order, require business licenses, tax licenses, several kinds of insurance, etc.

Don't feel bad though - we had some bad experiences with a couple brands we long since liquidated when they started selling to the customer factory direct at prices with free shipping (and 3 easy payments) that if we had tried the same, we'd have lost thousands of dollars.. Needless to say we stopped promoting the brand immediately.

MAP is a slippery slope and really cannot enforce it with current trade laws If you have a problem with your suppliers supplying your competitors who do not honor the MAP guidelines, then I would strongly suggest finding another supplier. Manufacturers are in business to produce and move product - they really do not care a whole lot about the MAP - if they did they would raise THEIR prices and then market prices would have to come up - They could always do a rebate to their distributors (or dealers) for meeting minimum volume

Personally from a business standpoint if I was seeing the kind of issues you seem to be to the point it stresses me like you seem to be, I'd drop the brand and find something else.. then liquidate what I had left at whatever someone would offer for it for quick sale.

(But then we've done that several times over the years) - the cash flow from the liquidation can be put into more profitable venues.

thatsallfolks · ‎06-08-2017

@corpseheads wrote:
Next step call Ebay and ask them and point out a greater problem on Ebay and that is people selling below, at or just above cost and how this hurts product lines and kills honest sellers and in the end no one makes a profit. Ebay rep. tells me the seller has a "managed account" and has special permission to sell below the MAP.

I didn't know eBay was involved in enforcing MAP. Is there documentation on this?

corpseheads · ‎06-09-2017

Problem with an auction is you violate ebay's duplicate listing policy with a buy-it-now.

I don't think my supplier is small. There's really no contract though. They're either the biggest or second biggest distributor. The manufacters are small in one case and the largest in the other. I take things at a literal word when I'm doing business. I can manipulate any system like any other but thought this was a level playing field but it appears not to be the case.

It's possible in one instance they're buying directly from China. In otherwords China has these huge factories that produce everything. It's not like the mnufacturer is standing there with arms folded tapping their foot for 4 months. I'm sure there is surplus and even seconds which may be being sold as new. I'm just using my imagination.

In the other instance I don't think other sellers care much. Ebay has promotions one of which can offer instant savings. Does that comply with MAP? I have no idea because no one tells me anything.

Ideally I'd rather manufacturer my own products whatever they are. Music is much more satisfying to me than Halloween props although a Halloween record is a possibility. I'm prepared to convert the real estate into something else by swapping out pictures and title, upc, item specifics, etc.

corpseheads · ‎06-09-2017

I stopped recording ebay phone calls years ago when it got real boring. I've had many conversations with Vero and Ebay reps and get a mixed bag of results but I'd rather talk to 100 people than talk to just one and rely solely on a lone opinion. My feeling on the matter is a rights holder can force removal of listings. Most of the sellers are from China and won't have much of a legal standing. Supreme court ruled 6 years ago MAP can be enforced. I got an Amplifier behind me a Dr. Z Z-lux. It's a top of the line amp you will see on many of the world's biggest stage. If I was a Dr. Z salesman and I tried to offer his amps below his MAP(which I'm sure he has one)I wouldn't be selling his amps for long. The market is not huge so he would not want some upstart with a fat wallet to play "ebay games". Since they're hand built it's quite possible such a small company would want to see your webpage and your ad. They could cut you off before they are shipped if they get the impression you're nothing but a joker. Larger company like Fender Guitars would just have your listing immediately removed by Vero. How ever you'd never get past all the hoops of fire in order to become a dealer in the first place. If you have the actual item in hand sure you can sell it for whatever but after that you can be cut off.

theheadphonecompany · ‎06-09-2017

%100 INCORRECT.

This issue (selling at MAP or at UPP pricing) has NOTHING to do with eBay - at all.

eBay is not the manufacturers selling platform, it is an open marketplace where as long as you sell LEGALLY obtained items inaccordance with eBay policies - its all ok according to US trade law.

BOTH the First Sale Doctrine and the Lanham Act specificaly state that once an item has been sold to a second party, the FIRST party looses control over what they can dictate (price etc).

Of course if you are a dealer and you sign an agreement, that agreement overrides those 2 acts - since its a simple contract/rider between you and the maker. It has NOTHING to do with eBay in any way shape or form.

This is NOT to say that eBay wont allow that maker to file fake VERO claims against you for revenge ... thats an entirely different matter since this thread is about MAP violations and not VERO issues (it would be thread hijacking).

Changing the topic ever so slightly ... Walmart and Amazon sell below dealer "sheet" all the time and most times, the makers have to look the other way - since they are the 800 pound gorillas in ecommerce.

The point is - sometimes being an authorized dealer is good (warranty benefits, co-op etc) and sometimes its bad (MAP/UPP etc) - thats a choice YOU have to make ....

eBay may do some rotten things - but this isnt one of them - they cant be blamed when its not their fault (for once).

corpseheads · ‎06-09-2017

Really? They are an enabler and routinely turn a blind eye to piracy and bait and switch tactics. MAP is quite related to copyright. So you think it's okay for Ebay to allow a seller to continue to sell on their site who has copyright issues? Safe harbor much?

Big manufacturers push their weight around all the time when it comes to dealers or so called dealers. Even someone selling used merchandise can come under scrutiny because Ebay agrees it's a risky area. Try selling Tiffany Jewelry. Better yet try and pretend to be an apple dealer. Ebay alone will restrict you because they have agreements with certain manufacturers.

Here's the deal most people playing the low ball game use the manufacturer's images. The manufacturer could easily file a DMCA. Here's where Ebay steps in to police. You try relisting that item even with new pictures they might suspend you. Do it a third time and you are off of the site. Try it on Amazon and you are in trouble until the rights holder is "appeased".

It doesn't matter what certain laws state, most sellers selling below cost are wacky foreigners. They have no recourse. The clincher is this the manufacturers coming out with MAP policies in my industry are doing so to appease their favorite sellers. They are hoping that a good many other sellers comply and lose sales.

Nothing is cut and dry and many sellers HAVE special privileges. I am not one of those sellers.

thatsallfolks · ‎06-09-2017

@corpseheads wrote:
MAP is quite related to copyright.

That's hilarious.

Where does eBay state that they even recognize MAP, much less do anything to enforce it?

corpseheads · ‎06-09-2017

Supreme court ruled MAP's can be enforced and are not price fixing. Copyright claim is is one avenue to achieve the desired results. Most sellers have really no contract in place. That's reality. Time for some pizza, wine and a horror movie.

thatsallfolks · ‎06-09-2017

@corpseheads wrote:
Supreme court ruled MAP's can be enforced and are not price fixing. Copyright claim is is one avenue to achieve the desired results. Most sellers have really no contract in place. That's reality. Time for some pizza, wine and a horror movie.

That would be abuse of the DCMA, and possibly perjury. Quite a risk.

theheadphonecompany · ‎06-09-2017

"enabler" ... of what?

Its not a crime to sell an item below MAP or UPP.

eBay isnt enabling anything. They are a selling platform, PERIOD. If I (as someone whos NOT a dealer) wish to sell something below MAP - Im %101 well with in my rights. Ive signed NO contracts, made no promises - and neither has eBay.

eBay has no reason to enforce MAP, its not in their TOS/UA - infact their enforcing it WOULD be illegal since they have nothing to do with the sale. FY - Amazon doesnt either.

The ONLY thing that can make you sell at MAP is a contract that you as a dealer sign.

"Big manufacturers push their weight around all the time" ... great - but they have no legal remedy to force YOU or anyone else to sell at MAP. Legally, if there are 2 parties in the "relationship" - those are the ONLY 2 parties that have obligations. Those 2 would be the maker and the first person they sold it to (dealer, distributor etc). Neither eBay nor a random seller has any obligations to honor any deals or restrictions placed upon the item since they have no relationship with the maker.

"Better yet try and pretend to be an Apple dealer" ... great if you can be one - but in that case - you would have signed a DEALER AGREEMENT - which has nothing to do with eBay.

"Ebay alone will restrict you because they have agreements with certain manufacturers" ... the ONLY agreement eBay has with any of the makers is to enforce copyright and/or trademark IP - NOTHING else. That obligation is one thats on ALL platforms, Amazon, Walmart or any other one you can think of. Those 2 items, copyright and trademark have NOTHING to do with pricing/cost/distribution methods or agreements that you as a dealer (or not) may or may not have made ... eBay simply isnt "party" to any of them.

"Here's the deal most people playing the low ball game use the manufacturer's images. The manufacturer could easily file a DMCA. Here's where Ebay steps in to police. You try relisting that item even with new pictures they might suspend you. Do it a third time and you are off of the site. Try it on Amazon and you are in trouble until the rights holder is "appeased".

SO then 1) dont use other people images - use a camera or you iphone and take them YOURSELF. THAT right there is copyright/trademark - something eBay does get involved in.