Is this considered shill bidding to the seller?

[flyinhawaiiangirl]

So in a discussion at work, maybe half of the room uses Ebay, the other half doesn't. I was explaining my strategy as a buyer and seller, and one of the other girls says she only buys, doesn't want to sell. I asked her why not and she said she doesn't ever think she'll get what she thinks her stuff is worth. It's probably too hard, too much time, blah blah blah.

So we talk at little about it, I brought up how I snipe bid ususally, and she said that was dumb. She said what has worked best for her is bid not her max. And if no one else bids, she wins the item. But if someone else starts bidding, she'll play the bidding game hoping to win. Then if it goes over what she's willing to pay, but the other bidder seems to still be outbidding her actively, she'll keep bidding until there's no response from the other bidder, basically she's won, but the auction isn't over yet. She then retracts her last bid and let's the other bidder win because they passed her max price awhile back. Basically "punishing" the other bidder by making them pay more than they really need to because it only cancels her last bid, not all of them. It apparently makes her feel like she's at least stuck it to the person who took the item away from her and gotten the seller as most as she can.

I told her I thought that would be considered shill bidding, and she might get banned for that. She told me she's done this forever, and it flushes out the snipers. I totally disagree and told her it would catch up to her eventually. I asked how many bid retractions do you have on your account? She shrugged her shoulders, says, I don't know how to even come up with a number, I don't keep track, but at least a hundred....!?!?!?!?! I told her that info was available for anyone to see, she doesn't believe me. Whatever, but first-is this shill bidding, second-would she get kicked off for this or only if she's reported by the seller, and third-how come I never get anyone bidding on my stuff like that?

[copper.boom]

There's a recent ongoing discussion about shill bidding in the buyer's forum if anyone wants to check it out:

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Bidding-Buying/No-Wonder-So-Many-Think-Shill-Bidding-is-Rampant-On-eBa...

To the OP- as others have said I'd be extra careful to CYA when you're working with her.

[rixstuff]

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@livadia wrote:

@flyinhawaiiangirl

Might not be shill bidding, but it sure says a lot about her basic nature, values, and priorities (herself).

Since you work with this person, you might want to keep this bit of "insight" tucked away in the back of your mind...

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True we see it as scummy but hte girl I knew was honestly just plain STUPID!  She really didnt quite get how ebay worked and much explaining when way over her head.

[7606dennis]

If I understand your scenario correctly, no it would not be shilling.  However, her invalid bid retractions would, in addition to being policy violations, be auction interference. If eBay followed their own policies, she would be kicked off eBay.

By the way, while probably not going to be acted upon, such bid manipulation could fall under the price fixing & bid rigging provisions of the Sherman Anti Trust Act.  That would make it a federal crime subject to quite hefty fines, lengthy imprisonment and/or both.  

[tarpedge]

The pigeon already knew that their proxy bid had been maxed out well before you retracted your bid near the end of the auction.

And speaking of the three valid reasons for retraction, "can't" contact seller is always valid, because "can't" indicates an unwillingness, exactly like I "can't" eat.

[jrandye5]

Shill bidding will basically FORCE a buyer to pay more than they should have paid as they set an amount they felt like paying, the Seller/Associate make a bid at the end of the auction, request the bid to be cancelled and then the last bidder gets a "Second Chance Offer" to pay much more than they would have if the bid was retracted.

I personally have witnessed just this scenario as I had an auction, for an item normally selling " B I N" for $0.99 for $.021 placed a bid of $0.89 (giving me the $0.21 bid), thinking I am going to get it at the low price then it is over bid to $0.94 and sold, in 5-10 minutes I receive a "S C O" for my MAX Bid, instead of the price I should have got it at.

Your co-worker, though not shill bidding, can be punished for retracting their bids this way, IF the winning bidder ever decides to file a complaint against the bidder they see constantly increasing the bid and retracting the last one just before auction ends.

[jrandye5]

With eBays "Automatic Bidding System" the sniping only works if you are willing to offer better than NORMAL "B I N" price for the item. It also just increases the price the seller gets for their item. I lose quire a few items to this type of bidding as I do place bids that will save me a few pennies from the "B I N" price but forces it to sell for over the "B I N" price.

[7606dennis]

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@tarpedge wrote:

The pigeon already knew that their proxy bid had been maxed out well before you retracted your bid near the end of the auction.

And speaking of the three valid reasons for retraction, "can't" contact seller is always valid, because "can't" indicates an unwillingness, exactly like I "can't" eat.

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Actually, for the can't contact the seller to be a valid reason to retract, the seller's phone number on file with eBay would need to be a non-operational one and the email address would also have to be a non-working one, in order for the retraction to be a valid one.

Seller's are not required by eBay policy to reply to anyone so merely not receiving a reply cannot be considered being unable to contact the seller as a valid excuse to retract.

[tarpedge]

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@7606dennis wrote:Actually, for the can't contact the seller to be a valid reason to retract, the seller's phone number on file with eBay would need to be a non-operational one and the email address would also have to be a non-working one, in order for the retraction to be a valid one.

[tellmemama]

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@jrandye5 wrote:
With eBays "Automatic Bidding System" the sniping only works if you are willing to offer better than NORMAL "B I N" price for the item. It also just increases the price the seller gets for their item. I lose quire a few items to this type of bidding as I do place bids that will save me a few pennies from the "B I N" price but forces it to sell for over the "B I N" price.

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No, sniping only works by putting in your maximum bid.  Just like bidding manually.  Snipers win because the previous high bidder didn't bid enough and doesn't have enough time to bid again.  But snipers can still lose if someone else's maximum bid is higher than theirs.

I'm not sure what you are saying about BIN.  If you place a bid, usually the BIN disappears.  If the item goes above what the original BIN was, well, that's good for the seller.  But the reverse is just as likely.  Last night I won a huge lot that had a $2,500 BIN and a $1,000 opening bid.  A few days before, someone placed a bid so the BIN went away.  I excpected it to sell for a few hundred less than the BIN.  I set up my snipe and won.

For $1,051.

[ted_200]

And speaking of the three valid reasons for retraction, "can't" contact seller is always valid, because "can't" indicates an unwillingness, exactly like I "can't" eat.

Given eBay's recent campaign to block messages between buyer and seller, "can't" very well could be valid.  

But that's not the case here, and what she's doing clearly violates multiple eBay policies about Auction Interferrence, Invalid Bid Retractions, etc. 

[mr_lincoln]

@flyinhawaiiangirl  Nice story and post ... So, is her bidding "ala for punishment" ethical?  No.  Is it allowed? Yes, eBay allows bids to be retracted otherwise she could not keep doing it.  Does she Buy on eBay? Yes, when she wins an Auction.  Does she drive the price of an item up to make other Buyers pay more? Yes, but they placed their bids knowingly ... so her perceived punishment may not be punishment at all (but don't tell her that!!!).  Does this type of bidding make anyone happy?  Why yes, the Seller, regardless of the retraction, because in the end the item still sells for more than the starting price ...

[copper.boom]

@mr_lincoln Except that it can cause issues between the winning bidder & the seller after she retracts her bid and takes off. Here's a recent example for you:

http://community.ebay.com/t5/Bidding-Buying/Bid-retracted/td-p/26969588

The auction winner in that case had no idea if this was a shill bidder for the seller or if it was a sport bidder. Either way, he was not pleased to have his bid driven up when the person bidding against him had no intention of following through in the end.

[7606dennis]

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@tarpedge wrote:

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@7606dennis wrote:Actually, for the can't contact the seller to be a valid reason to retract, the seller's phone number on file with eBay would need to be a non-operational one and the email address would also have to be a non-working one, in order for the retraction to be a valid one.

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Okay!  Did you have a question about my statement or were you merely trying to emphasize it by repeating it?

[deep-garnet-red]

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@luckythewinner wrote:

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@flyinhawaiiangirl wrote:
Then if it goes over what she's willing to pay, but the other bidder seems to still be outbidding her actively, she'll keep bidding until there's no response from the other bidder, basically she's won, but the auction isn't over yet. She then retracts her last bid and let's the other bidder win because they passed her max price awhile back.

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This would be shill bidding and is against eBay policy.

eBay Shill Bidding policy:

Shill bidding happens when anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or online connections—bids on an item with the intent to artificially increase its price

 Notice the policy says "anyone". A bidder does not have to be colluding with the seller to be guilty of shill bidding.

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Poor wording on ebay's part. Nothing new there.

This is definitely sport bidding and against policy no matter what you call it.

Worse of all, it has the appearance of shill bidding and can hurt the seller. Anyone who has that many bid retractions should be banned.

[tarpedge]

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@7606dennis wrote:

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@tarpedge wrote:

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@7606dennis wrote:Actually, for the can't contact the seller to be a valid reason to retract, the seller's phone number on file with eBay would need to be a non-operational one and the email address would also have to be a non-working one, in order for the retraction to be a valid one.

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Okay!  Did you have a question about my statement or were you merely trying to emphasize it by repeating it?

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Do you get your seller's email address?