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cjmust30 · ‎01-30-2022

It measures about 27" x 20" silk type fabric with hand woven black thread for the lettering and words. The frame measures 34" x 27". There are pictures of the entire piece and some up close of the words. What language is this? Also, any other info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help!

argon38 · ‎01-30-2022

Well, that's intriguing. Could you try to get a sharp close up shot of the two columns together, without the surrounding margins?

cjmust30 · ‎01-30-2022

THANKS!

sonomabarn67 · ‎01-30-2022

Shroud of Turin?

Just kidding, I have no idea but it reminds me of Judaica inscriptions.

lacemaker3 · ‎01-30-2022

@cjmust30

Could you post some pictures of the other side? From the appearance of the long, loose, horizontal and diagonal threads, it makes me think that this side may be the back of the piece, and the other side is the side that was intended to be seen.

This is quite odd. It does look vaguely like lettering, especially in the overall view, but the close-ups don't have any identifiable letters or characters at all. It might not look so much like lettering on the other side.

argon38 · ‎01-30-2022

@sonomabarn67 wrote:
Shroud of Turin?

Just kidding, I have no idea but it reminds me of Judaica inscriptions.

I know what you mean, but it's not Hebrew.

sonomabarn67 · ‎01-30-2022

But what does it look like on the other side? Are there possibly other stitches on the other side that don't show thru to the back? Sorta like a top stitch. Just guessing on this.

argon38 · ‎01-30-2022

@sonomabarn67 wrote:
But what does it look like on the other side? Are there possibly other stitches on the other side that don't show thru to the back? Sorta like a top stitch. Just guessing on this.

Well, that's what Lacemaker has suggested, and it occurred to me too. So that's three votes for seeing the other side. It looks to be encased in glass, so it would make sense if OP has possibly mistaken the back for the front.

sonomabarn67 · ‎01-30-2022

With those seams it looks like linen. Maybe OP is mistaking flax (linen) for silk.

lacemaker3 · ‎01-30-2022

@sonomabarn67 wrote:
With those seams it looks like linen. Maybe OP is mistaking flax (linen) for silk.

I didn't notice any seams in this piece.

Looking at the fringed edge, it appears that the fringed ends are the warp threads (vertical in the pictures), and they are much, much finer than the weft threads (which are horizontal). The warp threads are also more ends-per-inch than the weft threads.

I think that it is quite possible that the fibers were correctly identified as silk, although I can't tell for sure without much closer images. It appears to me that the finer warp threads may be reeled silk (which is the standard way to make silk, by reeling threads from intact cocoons). The weft threads are much thicker, and rather uneven, with thicker sections called slubs. This appears to be hand-spun silk, which is spun from the cocoons that are left over after the silkworms emerge. In Japan, this kind of spun silk is known as tsumugi, and is a way of making use of the silk cocoons that are left over when the breeding-stock silk worms are allowed to emerge naturally by chewing their way out of the end of the cocoon.

Depending on what this piece turns out to be, it might be worth-while to take it to a fabric expert, who could test a single thread to determine what it is. It is quite easy to distinguish between silk, cotton, and linen or other bast fibres, if you know how.

I would wait until we get more pictures to try to understand the embroidery, before suggesting that, though.

cjmust30 · ‎01-30-2022

The first pictures are definitely of the front of the piece. Here are some of the back and the fringe edge. The piece is in glass so the midsized photos are hard to see. THANKS ALL!

cjmust30 · ‎01-30-2022

This side is the front. I ran the lettering through Google Translate and it couldn't detect the language? Arabic or Hebrew?

cjmust30 · ‎01-30-2022

By the way, the line that you see in one of the photos is a stain on the outside of the glass. It is in photo #4 of the new photos.

argon38 · ‎01-30-2022

@cjmust30 wrote:
I ran the lettering through Google Translate and it couldn't detect the language? Arabic or Hebrew?

You have a mystery on your hands. The script is neither Arabic nor Hebrew. I've taken the liberty of enlarging your photo a little more, as some are reluctant to download images:

It may be worth checking out the scripts on these sites (I've looked, but have come up empty-handed):

https://omniglot.com/writing/index.htm

https://unicode.org/charts/

Another avenue worth trying would be to ask for help here (use one of your photos from message #3, and describe the language as "unknown"):

https://www.reddit.com/r/translator/

argon38 · ‎01-30-2022

I suppose the other possibility is that someone wanted to create an embroidery having (from a distance) a vaguely medieval manuscript look. They may have copied the general style of - say - a Latin document, without being concerned about the actual content. So the "letters" may be entirely artificial and not intended to survive close inspection. But while it's possible, it wouldn't be my first guess.