Buyers Expect Perfection in 40 year old Vintage 35mm Lens

[tomatbay]

I've been doing a lot of research and was amazed to see what is considered acceptable from a variety of sources.

How can you sell old Vintage stuff when it is difficult to quantify what is an acceptable level of internal dust/dirt or haze?  (I won't even mention scratches because my stuff never has any.)

The Buyer can simply say the lens is bad and claim SNAD.

[vssoutlet]

That, my friend, is the reality of selling vintage camera equipment; probably vintage anything. 40 years old is pretty young. Much of our stuff is closer to 70 years. If you check out our listings (here's one) you can see the lengths to which we go to show something like a lens. Regardless, people will disagree with your assessment. We try to be on the safe side and describe/show everything that is there to be seen - even things that make no real difference in use. "Underpromise and overdeliver" generally works well for us. It's also worth knowing how picky your audience is likely to be. If you are selling to a Leica or Hasselblad person, they will find things that you don't. Take that into account in your listing.

Good luck!

John

[tomatbay]

Apologies for a long-winded reply - some of it may be entertaining (!)

I just don't understand the vintage camera market.  For example, a Mamiya CS 14mm fisheye:  

Can you explain this:  there were none on eBay as completed auctions and none on any Craigslist using a Google search.  I read an article about a guy that bought one for $600 a few years back.  So I figured throw it up on CL for $699 in 2013.  Within hours a couple of them showed up on eBay priced >$700  I cannot accept that this was a coincidence:  And... they have been there ever since (!)

I have seen this behavior when trying to trade thinly traded options.  They go to sleep and aren't watched closely.  So if they are under valued, you can get them at a big discount.  But algorithms watching the market will detect this massive increase in %volume and they will go up in price dramatically.

So if some Mamiya NC1000 platform fan was lusting after a 14mm, why only 2 offers ($130 and $150) on mine listed for $199 when >$700 ones have been lised for years AND no Sold Completed???  ...possibly a rarefied market and a motivated buyer only surfaces every few years???

And the $150 guy is returning it because SNAD:  the focus ring is stiff and lens has pitting.   

RE: STIFF FOCUS RING:  I will say that anyone used to the light grease in Nikon F lenses, they would vomit at either the Auto XTL ES or the NC1000 CS lenses - Mamiya used heavy grease when new (perhaps a marketing thing for novices: that stiff grease gave the lense a feel of robustness but the result was you could focus it worth a **bleep** when compared to a Nikon F.

On one of the photo forums, when I asked how to check the coating on a 14mm fisheye, almost universally they said take some pictures with it and see if there are any problems.  Maybe that would be a good thing to put in an auction:  try it before you return it.

You could scrutinize this lens with a magnifying glass and it was perfect and literally sat 30 years in my bedroom.  The Flashlight Test is brutal and I even tried it on this lens, but the 14mm was uninterpretable when compared to even a 21mm f2.8 CS.

The $130 guy begged me to sell it to him with extreme promises of AS-IS, no returns.  I guess he might of actually wanted it.

I might forget about eBay and sell on CL and wait years to find a buyer.  

[vssoutlet]

The issue is with this kind of offering is that there is practically no sales history on this lens. If I go to Terapeak and do a year's worth of research, I find one lens selling for $150. It does not show up on eBay "sold" listings. So what do I think happened in this case?

1) With no sales history, people don't know where to price an item. Therefore the people who had them didn't put them online. They simply don't know what to charge for them. One person then posts the lens and declares a price: $699. All of a sudden, the other dudes with the same lens have a reference price (a bad one, but it's about as good as they can get. Quickly, they all post using the $699 as a reference.

2) People shoot Mamiya medium format because it's a decent camera and, most important, it's cheap compared to the higher end like Hasselblad. These people don't have (or are not willing to spend) Hasselblad money. I can get $2,200 for a Hasselblad fisheye. Not for a Mamiya. Mamiya people are shooting on a low budget. When you can buy a camera with 2-3 good lenses, you aren't likely to spend the same amount on a specialty lens you are only going to use every now and then. It's just not that useful.

At least, that's my take on this particular situation. 🙂

[tomatbay]

You raise a good point:  no activity, then I post an ad for $699 and other follow suit.

Ironically, could I have been possible for the  >$700 pricing of the 14mm???!!!  (but then there was the guy in some forum that paid $600 a couple years earlier...)

I checked the 14mm with KEH and they would pay $45 to 75 depending on condition.  I wonder what their markup is?  Obviously a function of popularity/turnover. 

KEN had NO pricing for the 21mm 2.8 which is probably the most desireable CS lense.

[reggiescabin]

In my personal view, 50 years as an avid photographer and seller of gear since the early 80's, graduating to online sales; newsgroups, yahoo auctions, then ebay over 20 years ago.

#1 there is no acceptable level of haze or for haze, haze is haze and that is ruined unless you swap the element. Haze is an internal issue that can not be cured, of course who would want it?

#2 there are no acceptable levels or for that matter any measured levels that anyone could duplicate themselves? In other words if you say it has 5% dust particles, how would anyone be able to duplicate the process you used to determine this too? It either has dust particles that are typical of any other lens, or it has none. If it doesn't fall in that range? Of course who would want it?

#3 there are buyers who take advantage but no more than sellers who also take advantage, there is never one side to any story and telling yours first is usually how it all goes unless a Judge is involved then he decides which fool is the foolishest? For every story you tell about buyers? There's 2 more about sellers by buyers. Buyers are neither right or wrong, neither are sellers..... we are all people, not members of any group?

#4 as long as there is this whiny crybaby petty dumb separation on eBAY? Sellers are going to rip buyers, and buyers are going to rip sellers...it is not a vicious cycle but more like a perpetual motioned cycle that speeds and slows down because ebay keeps trying to fix things ... this place, the tone of this discussion and many like it are about separation....buyers vs. sellers, us against them?

#5 there is only you, you can only control what you do and how you go about what you do. Your ethics, your skills, all alone and on your own and wanting to make money....but someone pinches your finger and the first thing you do is come running to a support group of sellers to soothe you by agreeing ...and what do get for coming here? A soft fiddle playing for you? Money? Righteousness?

A complete waste of time for anyone who set outs to make money, you do it by listening to what your customers tell you to do? Apparently if your customers are having issues, then you are not listening and so who's responsibility is that?

Well, I outlined what the confused do above

Those that get it, move on...learn, and move on....learn and move on....moooooviiinnnnggg on to the next....

[tomatbay]

Lots of good points. If the buyer or seller is not familiar with a vintage item it is impossible to determine the condition and hence a fair price.

Haze can't be cured?
If a grease track rolling down the back of the front element can be perfectly cleaned w/o coating damage I would think haze in many cases can be removed. And there are videos of people removing haze.

What am I missing?

[vssoutlet]

The 24mm is probably the most popular of the wide angles for the Mamiya.

[tomatbay]

There is no 24mm CS for the NC series body.  only 14, 21, 28, 35, 50, ...

[vssoutlet]

Sorry, wrong camera. I was thinking of the 645

[vssoutlet]

@reggiescabin

<<#1 there is no acceptable level of haze or for haze, haze is haze and that is ruined unless you swap the element. Haze is an internal issue that can not be cured, of course who would want it?>>

Absolutely, 100% false on two counts:

1. You absolutely can shoot with haze. It's how much and how dense of a haze that will impact your photos.  Old time photographers used to spray liquid hair net onto filters to get a "soft" effect. Light haze, depending on the lens and the amount of glass it affects, can make little to no difference.
2. I remove haze from lenses several times a week. How successful you are at removing it depends on: Your skill and tools at your disposal and the cause of the haze. If I breathe on a lens, there is now an easily-removed haze. Haze due to oil that has been sitting on an element for 40 years may have eaten into the coating. It may be improved with cleaning, but not repairable without polishing.

<<#2 there are no acceptable levels or for that matter any measured levels that anyone could duplicate

     themselves? In other words if you say it has 5% dust particles, how would anyone be able to duplicate the

     process you used to determine this too? It either has dust particles that are typical of any other lens, or it has

    none. If it doesn't fall in that range? Of course who would want it?>>

Agreed. Dust is a reality in lenses and is hard to quantify beyond a few specks. I don't think I've ever had a lens with anywhere near 5% dust. You'd literally have to open the lens and pour it in. I've VERY rarely encountered dust that ever showed up on the image.

[vssoutlet]

I have an exceptionally crazy example of the issue you are discussing. Check out this listing of mine: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123534615645

This is one of the most scarce lenses in the world today. I have the only documented example. There is rumored to be another floating around somewhere but it hasn't been confirmed. I know it was an "official" Dallmeyer lens because it is listed in the Lens Vade Mecum (http://www.antiquecameras.net/lensvademecum.html) which comes from reputable sources like catalog and collectors references. So I have a unique Dallmeyer lens. Awesome, right?

Wrong.

This lens has been sitting for a year. Why? Because people have no price reference for this lens. Nothing from eBay and nothing from the major auction houses. It also doesn't have the "Leica" name on it. It could be worth $1,000, $10,000 or $100,000. Who knows? People have no idea what to offer. Specs-wise, it will cover 4x5" and almost certainly 5x7" cameras. It is a RIDICULOUSLY fast lens at f/3.5 for a 356mm lens.

Perhaps I should have a Leica mount put on it 😉

[reggiescabin]

People have no idea what to offer?

"Anything" is only worth what some individual is willing to pay for it in reality.

Price guides are that, so are estimates ...all just speculation about what something could be worth 

Not intelligent, thought reliant, incapable of free thought types of people take things literally so a price guide, value, or estimate to them is exactly what it is worth because it said so and that's good enough reason for them...they don't have to think ...just the way they like it. 

The further you expand and broaden your search on Craigslist away from a metro center? 

The more likely you are to read this; 

"Thay's gettin five hundred whole dollars for these here on ebay ya know? " 

So what is value anyway? 

As I said, the amount someone is willing to pay and never what people who aren't paying say it's worth? 

My point is this, these blue books on values bank on people being lazy so they will buy their book and it works because people are so lazy they not only buy the book they buy what's in it....and this is for sure, that book ain't gonna but nothin.....

VALUE IS LUCK, you find someone that just happens to value what you have 

It's OK it's what most poor sales people all do, confuse their priority as a salesman by trying to be an expert appraiser 

to my friend, who challenged 5% dust, a bit too literal there buddy? I just loosely applied a figure to make a point, not as a measurement you write down and apply Sheldon? 

[reggiescabin]

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

[cycle-dog]

“…40 years old is pretty young…” ~ vssoutlet

So true, and thank you! 😉

All fun aside, been shooting since a kid, and still have my “old” ‘70s Blad, Contax/Zeiss 35mm, Mamiya Range Finder, Nikon F-series and now, begrudgingly, gotta admit, DIGITAL (FX-Nikon, D3S & D3X, and D800-series, put them together and “get” the D5? We’ll see, about to buy; if WANT film/video, have an awesome cam for that, the one’s Hollywood blows up (all those great close-up action shots!) and indies crave, but I digress). Ah, FILM … TOR STAR, seems like a life time ago, I double digress; since went onto … art photographer (published, gallery exhibited, etc., etc.), and attorney, but NEVERMIND. Enough about me, about what buyers expect, right?!

Some of my “old” gear – and yes, some even OLDER, inherited from my uncle, former WW2 correspondent/photographer—looks like well how do you say NOT PRETTY, but work horse – perfect specs, works like it should and glass is clear (do they build it the same today? NOPE. Don’t get me started). ALL ABOUT IMAGE, ain’t it? Personally, don’t give a dam’ if looking for a “bargain” if it’s not particularly pretty on the outside, rather, care about the inners—how much time must I spend in processing, ya know? (Know you do, and sad to say, recently donated a Nikon 400 2.8 along with a Nikon D3, sensor scratched and other issues: for most, would be awesome, just fine; for me, REPLACE. Thanks). To each their own. (PS they love it, casual/consumer; me? NOT so much, LOL).

As in, … BE 1000 percent honest, test it out, show shot against white board, and let buyer chose for themselves. OFFER 30 day return, BUYER PAYS SHIPPING, BOTH WAYS!

BESTO, and keep shooting!