eBay

thebestrarefinds · ‎12-31-2022

After wrongfully getting hit with some counterfeit claims from eBay over the past few weeks (I don't believe they were VERO-related), many of you reached out on my thread and shared incredible information (thank you to those of you!).

Since then, I've been thinking about this system and I must say... it's extremely broken.

I've been wondering about realistic changes you would make to eBay's seller system to fix it?

Off the top of my head:

- The listing tool should have the framework for listing an authentic item to the point where the listing can only be published if certain criteria are met. It should be more robust depending on what you list. For example, if I list an old garden watering can with no major brand name, then the listing should be able to recognize this and obviously make it more straightforward vs. something like a brand new with tags North Face jacket which can be very punitive when it comes to VERO strikes. Once that brand is selected, unique conditional criteria should be unlocked such as "Unworn w/ tags (no manufacturer warranty guarantee)". This seems so basic and could be implemented in no-time.

- Listings in question should be removed from search results + unbuyable and sellers should be given the opportunity to delist their items or submit an appeal rather then having eBay/the brand immediately delist them and threatened with a permanent suspension as if there is a gun to their head. If the listing hasn't been ended by the seller or an appeal hasn't been submitted in some reasonable time frame (7 days?), then eBay should delist the item. Since the updated listing tool highlighted in the previous bullet-point should prevent counterfeits from getting to search feed, then getting this point will be significantly more unlikely than it is already.

- VERO claims by companies showing things like differences in "stitching" should be transparent for educational purposes and trust. Replica manufacturers already buy the real thing and utilize photogrammetry technology, cloud compute, and materials sciences to replicate products with extreme accuracy from what I've learned. Sending an official PDF with basic notes on what areas to highlight that can likely already be found on YouTube, Reddit, etc. to prove authenticity won't contribute to the counterfeit product problem in any meaningful way

- There should be two listing tools set up for authorized sellers of authentic products vs unauthorized sellers of authentic products. Authorized sellers like Dick's Sporting Goods or Sport Chek can guarantee the manufacturer warranty even via their ebay store while unauthorized sellers (myself and likely you) cannot. Simply communicate this to the buyer.

Most of this can be resolved if the companies involved in VERO and ebay can simple better communicate to the buyer the difference between buying a product from your local big box store vs. John Appleseed from a few states/provinces over...

I tried to think of simple protocol changes or UI alterations rather than having to hire huge teams of human reviewers since this is unrealistic.

I'm optimistic the eBay team will make this system more coherent for sellers in the future!

Does anyone else have any other ideas?

luckythewinner · ‎12-31-2022

How would you fix the VERO system

What this is really asking is "In what ways would eBay voluntarily give up DMCA's the safe harbor protection in order to make things easier for me?"

The simple answer is that eBay has absolutely no incentive to shoulder your liability you for intellectual property violations.

thebestrarefinds · ‎12-31-2022

Your first sentence is observably not true because other platforms have implemented tools to help users avoid trademark & copyright violations including YouTube who has come a long way since the Google takeover. eBay like actually literally has no system in place even 1% close to what they've developed.

It's not that it's not easy: it's that it's extremely unreasonable right now. These are two different things. This isn't black & white. eBay even knows this as they've communicated that they're working on ways to make an appeals process for sellers and they've "heard" the complaints, but 1-2 years later and this is still nowhere to be seen.

You're welcome to explain how my suggestions could possibly be gamed worse than the status quo, but I don't see that anywhere in your comment. That would actually answer the question I lead the thread with.

False VERO's get served all the time. Check this board.

"The simple answer is that eBay has absolutely no incentive"

I never said there was, but over the long term, it opens up the possibility of disruption. Look at Sundar at Google panicking about ChatGPT 3.5 and 4.0 right now. eBay used to have the whole pie, but over time Poshmark, Etsy, Grailed, GOAT, StockX, Depop, Whatnot, etc. have taken pieces of that pie and based on personal experience, their authentication system is far more reasonable - for companies growing on a far steeper S-Curve vs. a company that routinely slips into growth stagnation.

"...for intellectual property violations"

Re: False VERO's get served all the time. Check this board.

leesas_fashion_finds · ‎12-31-2022

I don't see how their suggestion would make ebay liable for actual or alleged IP infringement.

Their approach is a win-win-win since it's attempting to be proactive in preventing counterfeit products getting past the publish button much like YouTube is when it comes to uploading videos with copyrighted music.

Isn't that better for everyone involved?

thebestrarefinds · ‎12-31-2022

They didn't read the post.

It kind of reminds me of the AirBnb Host situation leading up to the last couple of years.

Places like the Airbnb subreddit were chaos with Hosts complaining about their treatment by Guests and the company having a tendency to back the Guests.

For some reason, against their own self-interests, there'd always be a handful of people who back the company and make the Host (who is the victim) seem like they're the one in the wrong and/or a criminal.

Airbnb themselves didn't even agree and acknowledged the situation was bad. They've made major strides in the past couple of years to improve the customer experience particularly for Hosts and have clearly communicated their dedicated to righting these wrongs.

So where are all the people who suggested everything was A-OK and the hosts were in the wrong? *crickets*

I feel my suggestions for revamping VERO and the counterfeit policy are very reasonable. There's literally nothing there right now. Anyone can post anything they want to the site. Anything can get taken down whether it's abuse of VERO or not. You can't appeal to anyone. You can't communicate to anyone who makes decisions. You can't communicate with the manufacturer. You can't request a framework or set of guidelines to ensure you're compliant. There's literally nothing there. I feel good about my suggestions.

rfmtm · ‎12-31-2022

Counterfeit is the hardest claim to get pass without definitive proof you can show ebay and the VeRO member. And even then ebay may ignore you. This is why it is a favorite with VeRO abusers.

The actual DMCA law, which VeRO is based on, applies to copyright violations only. Authenticity (counterfeit) and trademark abuse are not covered by the DMCA for web site removal under the law. It's eBay's own policy that extends the DMCA like behavior to this. The downside is that as a result you don't get the DMCA mandated remedies against people who abuse it.

Another problem is if this is not a VeRO take down, but just ebay removing your item for counterfeit. Ebay appears to be doing more and more of this sort of thing against sellers of various products without giving them any recourse whatsoever to appeal it. Obviously ebay is trying to protect against counterfeits, but at times seems to not be applying the take downs fairly to all sellers.

Yes, there is a lot of things ebay could change, and you suggest some good ones. However, the only thing abusers respond to is the threat of legal action, which usually has cases settled out of court, so few know the number of us that have taken those steps and won. Then when the outcome gets to ebay, they leave you alone.

slippinjimmy · ‎12-31-2022

@thebestrarefinds wrote:
After wrongfully getting hit with some counterfeit claims from eBay over the past few weeks (I don't believe they were VERO-related), many of you reached out on my thread and shared incredible information (thank you to those of you!).

Since then, I've been thinking about this system and I must say... it's extremely broken.

I've been wondering about realistic changes you would make to eBay's seller system to fix it?

Off the top of my head:

- The listing tool should have the framework for listing an authentic item to the point where the listing can only be published if certain criteria are met. It should be more robust depending on what you list. For example, if I list an old garden watering can with no major brand name, then the listing should be able to recognize this and obviously make it more straightforward vs. something like a brand new with tags North Face jacket which can be very punitive when it comes to VERO strikes. Once that brand is selected, unique conditional criteria should be unlocked such as "Unworn w/ tags (no manufacturer warranty guarantee)". This seems so basic and could be implemented in no-time.

- Listings in question should be removed from search results + unbuyable and sellers should be given the opportunity to delist their items or submit an appeal rather then having eBay/the brand immediately delist them and threatened with a permanent suspension as if there is a gun to their head. If the listing hasn't been ended by the seller or an appeal hasn't been submitted in some reasonable time frame (7 days?), then eBay should delist the item. Since the updated listing tool highlighted in the previous bullet-point should prevent counterfeits from getting to search feed, then getting this point will be significantly more unlikely than it is already.

- VERO claims by companies showing things like differences in "stitching" should be transparent for educational purposes and trust. Replica manufacturers already buy the real thing and utilize photogrammetry technology, cloud compute, and materials sciences to replicate products with extreme accuracy from what I've learned. Sending an official PDF with basic notes on what areas to highlight that can likely already be found on YouTube, Reddit, etc. to prove authenticity won't contribute to the counterfeit product problem in any meaningful way

- There should be two listing tools set up for authorized sellers of authentic products vs unauthorized sellers of authentic products. Authorized sellers like Dick's Sporting Goods or Sport Chek can guarantee the manufacturer warranty even via their ebay store while unauthorized sellers (myself and likely you) cannot. Simply communicate this to the buyer.

Most of this can be resolved if the companies involved in VERO and ebay can simple better communicate to the buyer the difference between buying a product from your local big box store vs. John Appleseed from a few states/provinces over...

I tried to think of simple protocol changes or UI alterations rather than having to hire huge teams of human reviewers since this is unrealistic.

I'm optimistic the eBay team will make this system more coherent for sellers in the future!

Does anyone else have any other ideas?

The only way to change it is to convince Congress to amend the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) to include severe penalties for misuse. As it is only the alleged infringing party can take any action and in most cases they don't have the deep pockets to fight the abusers.

thebestrarefinds · ‎01-01-2023

I mean, I had an item taken down and I received an email from the manufacturer mentioning they feel the items are authentic based on the photos from the listing and I was able to find the physical receipts.

Yet when I presented this to eBay, they told me that the last customer service rep I spoke with that told me to go get the manufacturers attention was actually lying and there was in-fact no way to undo ebay's decision to strike down listings and falsely accuse a seller of illegally listing counterfeit items. I've also been told by ebay reps that the penalties from their counterfeit policy being used against your account last for (get ready): 90 days, 6 months, 1 year, and forever. 4 different answers from 4 different ebay reps.

My suggestions have nothing to do with changing the law since that is unreasonable. I still think YouTube is a great example. If you have copyrighted content in a video that would break DMCA, then you can't get past the publish button. They're leveraging very basic AI with a preset database to do this which is significantly more than what ebay would need.

As I suggest in my original comment, ebay should detect when you're trying to sell Chanel earrings and the listing template should completely change to make it so you can't list the item on the public marketplace unless a series of specific criteria are met. This is literally just filling out fields as determined by the manufacturer. This is nothing. I could literally build this in a couple of weeks by myself. If a suspected counterfeit item gets past (which would inherently be significantly less), then place a temporary removal on the item and give the seller a choice: A) End the item, or B) appeal the decision. Even make sellers pay for the appeal. $1, $5, $20, who cares. In my opinion, this is a win for everyone involved.

The internal ebay takedowns are somehow more frustrating than the VERO ones. Mainly because we're lied to a lot.

I'm still trying to be hopeful that ebay will make this system coherent and reasonable one day. Airbnb is a different example because they've always been a scrappy product-driven company that is customer-obsessed, but perhaps some of us engineers could literally try to get jobs at ebay and enact this simple UI and protocol change - like the retired engineer who got a job at Apple specifically to add the functionality so iOS's Wallet app could delete old boarding passes, then quit. These changes I suggest are actually casting more filters on counterfeits making it to market. It's proactive as opposed to reactive.

rfmtm · ‎01-01-2023

If it was a VeRO take down and you contacted the VeRO member who decides it was a mistake and not counterfeit, the VeRO member simply rescinds the complaint and ebay will remove the strike and allow the listing.

If just an ebay take down, you are pretty much out of luck, as they give you no recourse. This is pretty outrageous, but it is ebay site to do what it wants.

Afraid the whole take down system needs an overhaul, and as you post have some kind of pre-posting review or at least a reasonable appeal process.

nsch9879 · ‎03-19-2024

Personally I would cite the first sale doctrine. Any item which is not brand new cannot be copyright infringement by law. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1854-copyright-infringement-first-sale-... Secondly I would require some kind of documentation and proof that the so called "verified rights owners" are #1 verified. #2 have any rights. #3 are the actual owners. Thirdly I would allow sellers to have some kind of appeal process or better yet a way to register their original brand when selling their own custom branded product and using their own logos. Fourthly I would recommend a permanent IP ban from the platform for anyone abusing the VERO program as a form of corporate espionage to eliminate competition. Fifthly I recommend a class action lawsuit against ebay itself for promoting and participating in corporate espionage,perjury and fraud.