Forgery

[jeffbrow_cpjupljj]

I'm pretty sure someone is selling forged Kurt Vonnegut books. I tried to report it, but keep getting kicked out. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[sonomabarn67]

There is a Report Item link on every auction.

[sonomabarn67]

Also, you say "pretty sure".  There is "forgery" or "authentic",  I don't think pretty sure is an option.

[afantiques]

Do you mean that someone has reprinted a version of a first edition, or they are simply bootleg editions in violation of copyright.?

[argon38]

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@afantiques wrote:

Do you mean that someone has reprinted a version of a first edition, or they are simply bootleg editions in violation of copyright.?

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He believes the signature is forged:

http://community.ebay.com/t5/Member-To-Member-Support/Forgeries/qaq-p/25056128

[afantiques]

That makes more sense.

[maxine*j]

Of course, reporting does no good in this case, and justly so.  Caveat emptor.

Or, as fine.books used to say:

"Personally, I wouldn't buy a signed book on eBay unless the listing included a video of the author actually signing the book, accompanied by a Private Investigator's report stating that the video was genuine, plus the social security numbers of the seller, the author, the Private Investigator and all their Parents, and the author's telephone number for verification.  Even then I'd be skeptical, and wouldn't pay more than a dollar for any signed book here, inclusive of shipping."

.

[all_fakes]

I agree ebay will ignore any report related to a possibly forged signature.

Caveat Emptor would apply, but on the other hand, selling a book with a forged signature is possibly a criminal act, and anyone might well be concerned; just as a witness to a shoplift or robbery may decide for themselves whether to take action or not.

One could contact Kurt Vonnegut's legal representatives (Kurt Vonnegut LLC holds all rights to his intellectual property, and I'd guess they also could complain legally about forging of his signature) and they could if they wish, file an ebay VeRO complaint; ebay is quick to act on a VeRO complaint from a rights-holder. See https://www.vonnegut.com/

[maxine*j]

No one can disagree with you.  But proving a seller is the forger is hard.

Many of the fake signatures and autographs are sold in good faith by people who bought them in good faith as authentic, ad infinitum. 

Many people can't tell a facsimile signature from a real one,  thus all the "signed" copies of Grant's memoirs. 

Modern authors, including Vonnegut, signed a lot of books. 

And so on.

Unless there's good evidence the seller is a forger and / or is selling signatures he knows to be forged, it's pretty hopeless. 

People buying signed books should know that.

The safest thing to do is buy only from reputable booksellers, who do their utmost to authenticate signatures and guarantee a full refund, period, forever, if the buyer determines the signature to be not genuine.

I'm not defending the deliberate fakers and cheats out there.  I'm just saying that it is so hard to winkle them out in the vast eBay market that it seems better not expend energy and time trying to do so. 

Instead, use that time and energy to learn how to figure out if it's reasonable to think given signatures are authentic and buy from dealers who back up their own opinions that they are.

But, then I went into research instead of law enforcement.      

[sonomabarn67]

There is a new law here in CA that forbids selling autograps of any sort without documentation; if the seller is in CA you could follow that route. That is after you have proven them to be fakes...if they are...

[sonomabarn67]

Maxine CSI

[maxine*j]

Nah, I was never involved in the California Solar Initiative.  (My personality is just not sunny enough.)

[argon38]

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@maxine*j wrote:

 (My personality is just not sunny enough.)

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[afantiques]

The author would have been delighted. It's foma.

From the First Book of Bokonon

Verse 1: All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies

See  'Cat's Cradle'

[all_fakes]

I don't disagree about the difficulty proving forgery.

All I was suggesting is that anyone who wishes can alert the Vonnegut rights-owners to a possible forgery; and if the Vonnegut rights-holders desire, they could file an ebay VeRO report.

The VeRO program does not require any proof that a seller has knowledge that an item is fake.

VeRO is a very simple program; a rights-holder files an affidavit stating that they own the rights to a particular item.   Ebay keeps it on file, and ebay will honor the request of that rights-holder to take down a listing.   The seller has appeal rights, and a process for getting the ebay decision reversed.

     I sort of doubt that the Vonnegut folks would bother using the VeRO process, but they might be interested.

Many corporations are extremely aggresive in using VeRO. For one example, the Gibson guitar company uses it to take down all listings for fake Gibsons, and all listings using the Gibson trademarks improperly.  Their website has a form for people to report such improper uses, and if you see an ebay listing for a "Gibson-style guitar" you can assume that it will be taken down almost instantly.  

But many rights-owners are not that aggresive.

    Note that VeRO is for the rights-owners only; third parties can't use it to report fakes.   It remains true that ebay ignores third-party reports about fakes and forgeries, and rightly so.   But VeRO reports from the actual copyright owners get near-instant response.