Auction Scam Beware. I got scammed.

[max-list]

I caught this by accident. Right above "Place bid" are the bids. Clicking that shows all the bidders. Bottom of page shows any bid retractions. Example: if you click on 6***4 (6) it shows details about them, bidding habits and more (92 bid retractions 100% bids with this seller), but it changes the anonymous 6***4 (6) to v***4 (6). The name changes but the feedback score (6) doesn't.

That 6***4 (6) was the highest bid but retracted it right before my final bid. So I went to the seller's sold items and found 3 more bidders. They had 23, 75 and 83 and the 92 bid retractions. All 4 bidders drove up the bid on ALL his items (100 items, $100 - $500 just in the last 4 months), and retracted many times. That's a lot of money and he's been selling here since 2017. (Estimate) $250 x 300 items yr = $75,000 x 4 yrs = $300,000. Ebay makes 12.5% = $37,500.

All I had to do was look for the (6) or the (14) or whatever and it would show the same # of retractions & bids so I know it's the same person. I looked up "Shill bidding". It says "How do I report shill bidding?" - "If you think that another member is shill bidding, you don't  need to report it to us. eBay has a number of systems in place to detect and monitor bidding patterns and practices." Really....

When I reported the seller to Ebay they agreed it looked suspicious and said the seller already has other cases they're looking into and "Thanks for reporting this." But ummm, the seller is still selling high $ items everyday. Will Ebay refund all the people that got scammed before and after I reported this? No. Hopefully, eventually they'll boot this guy, but maybe they won't, what's the rush? He's making them a lot of money.

[whattheactualfox]

If the seller gets suspended, they are off the platform and it is up to the user's to get their money back. (Yes I know its ridiculous because they already give them buyer protections but eh.)

Ebay has a lot more users/reports then employees so it is usually a matter of time until the user gets booted. And when you get the boot, you're out. 

[7606dennis]

While that many bid retractions is obviously not good, I don't believe that it can necessarily be taken to be a sign of shilling.  There are way to many serial bid retractors that do it for their own ends without the seller being involved.  Unless the retractor had placed all of his bids with this particular seller, I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that the seller was using a shill.  Of course, you can report your suspicions for investigation to eBay but it wouldn't affect the outcome of the auction until it is completed.  Even then it probably wouldn't affect this auction.

Of course, if the bidder retracted after you placed your bid, the retraction should have adjusted the bidding to where it would have been if the retracted bid had never been placed at all.  Thus if you only bid what you were willing to pay you shouldn't have been affected.

Personally, when someone retracts a bid from my auctions I cancel all of their bids on that and any other of my auctions the may have placed one on.  I also block them.  Of course, I usually check bidder's retraction records and if time permits I do the same thing to anyone with more than one retraction on their record. 

[mudshark61369]

@max-list,

 "Example: if you click on 6***4 (6) it shows details about them, bidding habits and more (92 bid retractions 100% bids with this seller)".

Has the bidder bid on more than one of the seller's items in the last 30 days? If they had bid on many of the seller's items and retracted bids, then it is entirely possible they are a shill. However, there are inexperienced members who bid against early automatic bids, until they reach their price point for an item or uncover a members max bid and if it is too high for them they retract. Doing that violates ebay's invalid bid retraction policy, but they have done nothing to stop the practice.   If the low feedback member placed an early automatic bid of their own on the auction, then retracted just before the listing ended, that has become a common tactic of chinese sellers.

eBay's message about supposedly investigating shills, is some what disingenuous. The only method that have for proving shill bidding is the seller's and shill's account being linked. If either one logged into the other's account from the same ISP they can prove shill activity. If that has not happened they cannot prove beyond a doubt that a shill is being used, so they cannot take any action, no matter how suspicious the activity is.

There are only a few ways to avoid possible shills, keep an eye on the bid histories of early bidders checking for retractions, or sniping in the last seconds so the shill doesn't have time to retract. Don't get into bidding wars.

[max-list]

How can the users get their money back? They have no idea they were scammed. And that's why I asked, if ebay would notify them. Rhetorical question because they won't.

[max-list]

Did you read my post? You said "Unless the retractor had placed all of his bids with this particular seller, I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that the seller was using a shill."
It wasn't 1 bidder, it was 4. And "All 4 bidders drove up the bid on ALL his items" & "100% bids with this seller" for 4 months.

So I'm jumping to conclusions? I'm glad you're not working for ebay in their fraud dept.

[max-list]

You didn't read it either?

"Has the bidder bid on more than one of the seller's items in the last 30 days?" There were 4 of them and they bid on ALL of his items for the last 4 months. 100 auctions.

"All 4 bidders drove up the bid on ALL his items (100 items, $100 - $500 just in the last 4 months)"

That's beyond suspicious. This wasn't 1 auction or 1 bidder, it was 4 bidders & 100 auctions 100% with this seller.

I thought I explained it in detail.  My whole point was to warn other bidders.

I proved it's shill bidding, it cannot be a mistake or newbie bidders.

I'm sorry I posted it now.

[mudshark61369]

@max-list,

You mention the "shills" have bid on all of the seller's items for the last four months. Their individual bid histories only show bids placed in the last 30 days, and completed/sold listing details are only accessible for 90 days.  So we have to question some of your info. 

Over many years 7606dennis, myself and other longtime board members have dealt with many reports of supposed shill bidding, that were actually misunderstandings of the information buyers can access, and bidding policies. In fact the vast majority of those posts were because of that.

I am not saying shill bidding does not happen on ebay, but it happens far less often than many think.  I did mention in my earlier post that chinese sellers use the bid retraction ploy on their auctions often, but you did not confirm if this was the case with the auctions you obtained the information from.

While it is commendable that you want to warn people, posting on these boards does not reach many ebay users, since less than 1% of them come to the community boards. If you won and paid for auction(s) from the seller because of a bid retraction, leave a feedback saying you won the auction because a bidder who had 92 retractions with the seller retracted their bid. That might be seen by more members than will read your post on these boards.

For future reference if you want to bid on a chinese seller's auctions check the bid histories of prior bidders, before placing a bid.

If they have a history of retracting bids on a seller's auctions do not bid. 

Often those sellers get their shills to place the first bid as an automatic one, something most low feedback bidders do not know how to do.

Bid at the very end of the auction so the serial bid retracters do not have time to retract.

Better yet do not bid on Asian based sellers auctions at all. Especially, those that have a very low start price.

[max-list]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be a smart a**.  The only reason I questioned you was because you asked if all the bids were with this seller & you wouldn't jump to any conclusions. I spent hours looking at and writing down all those bids and items to make sure I wasn't doing that before posting.

[max-list]

3 mo back for sold, but I also went through his current listings, about 30. I should have said 4 mo total. The bidder's history is a 30 day summary, but it shows their bid retractions for 12 months. I was going by that #.

The only reason I brought up their retraction/feedback was it was the only way I saw to identify them. I know it's impossible to know if bidders are working with the seller just by how many times they bid, 100% with seller or a few retractions. But my way of identifying them went beyond that. What are the odds of the feedback & retractions so high being the same for 4 bidders over a year? I'd say slim to none.

I didn't post this flippantly. I spent hours researching it. Sold & active item bids, writing down time & days of bids & retractions, ebay's policy on shill bidders, help topics & talking with CS who agreed with me. I searched the community boards and most were accusing 1 bidder, 100% with seller and/or low feedback which is false and already explained to them. Nothing about the feedback/retractions being the same on 4 bidders, 100% with seller over an extended period.

So when I read 2 out of 3 comments saying: "...necessarily be taken to be a sign of shilling." / "...jump to the conclusion..." / "...inexperienced members who bid..." / "...feedback member placed an early automatic bid..." / "... in the last 30 days?" I didn't see how any of that applied to what I'd explained in my post. But re-reading it I can see both of you were just telling me your experience with it, not telling me I was wrong. I overreacted. I apologize.

This particular seller wasn't from China but thanks for the advice. I do buy most of my lighters there because that's the only place to buy the lighters inexpensively that I sell, so I'm kinda stuck. I snipe max bid last seconds, so whatever I win I'm fine with. But not this one. He ripped me off and it's the principle of it, not the money. I'm not paying him a cent.

[max-list]

Just a follow up. Since this post, he has sold over $3,800 in the last 30 days. His last sale was for $255. His shill (11 a mo, 98 yr retractions) got into a bidding war with a flurry of bids on the last day, so they knew this guy wanted it bad. He retracted his high bid 1 minute before the end, so the buyer who wanted it bad I'm sure was thrilled to win it. He doesn't know he got scammed. And all his shills with 50-100 retractions continue to bid on ALL his auctions unabated.

To just watch Ebay allow this is so wrong. Like a said, Ebay is making a killing off this guy. What's the incentive to get rid of him?

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just a coincidence....

[downunder-61]

eBay does nothing about retractions which was evidenced by a buyer I found who had 614 and who is also, ironically, a seller who came to the boards and complained when a cancelled an auction they had won........I wonder why?

[stephenmorgan]

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@max-list wrote:

Just a follow up. Since this post, he has sold over $3,800 in the last 30 days. His last sale was for $255. His shill (11 a mo, 98 yr retractions) got into a bidding war with a flurry of bids on the last day, so they knew this guy wanted it bad. He retracted his high bid 1 minute before the end, so the buyer who wanted it bad I'm sure was thrilled to win it. He doesn't know he got scammed. And all his shills with 50-100 retractions continue to bid on ALL his auctions unabated.

To just watch Ebay allow this is so wrong. Like a said, Ebay is making a killing off this guy. What's the incentive to get rid of him?

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just a coincidence....

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To pull of a good Shill Bid multiple accounts would be helpful.  One account is used to uncover someone's Max Bid and then cancels their Bid.  The second Shill Bids just below your max bid.

eBay knows exactly where a bid comes from by the IP Address.  I have had occasion to talk with eBay about a security issue and they were quite adamant that my account has only been signed onto from one IP Address, mine.  I have had similar conversations with Credit Card Companies and PayPal.  They also know exactly what IP Address is accessing their system.

Me personally, if someone maxes out my bid and then retracts their bid I would not buy the item.  At the moment I am outbid I am not obligated to purchase the item.  I would not even buy it with a Second Chance Offer.

[max-list]

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@stephenmorgan wrote:

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eBay knows exactly where a bid comes from by the IP Address.

Me personally, if someone maxes out my bid and then retracts their bid I would not buy the item.  At the moment I am outbid I am not obligated to purchase the item.  I would not even buy it with a Second Chance Offer.

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These are all different accounts, different IPs. They aren't connected to his account. They just bid on his auctions. I didn't get burned by this guy because I caught it.

I'm getting wiser and learning more about bid retractions, but millions don't know, or how to check. That's why I posted this. So if others search for bid retractions or shill bidders, they might see this. All of the other posts I searched for said it can't be proved, or don't buy from China or whatever. None showed how to check the bidders and had the proof that I show here.

[cainb94]

I just started selling on ebay about a month ago and so far everyone that's won a bid on my stuff I've had to have canceled because there scammers they win the bid then send me a email asking for cards or just don't pay.