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Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Mar 11, 2009 1:14:09 PM
highwaterpants
Enthusiast
This is my first visit to this discussion forum. I hoped I would find some useful and enlightening information about watches. Instead, I found a series of insults and no intelligent remarks. I will not return.
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Message 61 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Mar 11, 2009 5:44:16 PM
groosbro
Enthusiast
BOOOOHOOOO!

You drag up a three year old thread, and by such you judge all content. Got some thin skin there...


We must all pick our battles, is THIS your finest hour?

3,526 Views
Message 62 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Mar 11, 2009 11:50:41 PM
gregoryswatches
Trailblazer
"Instead, I found a series of insults and no intelligent remarks. I will not return."

We must not be reading the same posts. Reviewing this old thread, I don't know how someone could come to that conclusion. While the debate was spirited at times and a couple of posts may have briefly crossed the line, the vast majority of the 60-posts in the thread contained rational, reasoned arguments to support differing points of view. In addition, the thread discussed many useful topics, including:


  • The differences between different grades of watches,
  • The changes coming in ETA movement distribution
  • Different philosophies in collecting
  • Definition of tourbillon movements
  • Much more


I don't know how you missed all the good stuff and managed to focus on the very small imperfections in the thread. If you ignore the sparkle and look for the flaws, small specks of carbon can be found in even the finest diamonds. I, for one, don't mind having this thread used to judge the board.

Greg
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Message 63 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Apr 6, 2009 6:16:47 PM
ballslammer
Enthusiast
Gregory,

I sure am glad you have replied to this old thread giving me a chance to give my input.

When I was 10yrs old I really started to take notice of my father's SS Rolex Sub. I didn't know the value of the watch or if it was to be such a good investment. I did know that my father purchased things of good quality ie. his 35mm Leica SLR camera and after starting a modest collection of Seiko watches the Sub would become the most coveted watch I would ever want in my collection.

My point is simply this...the wrapper has ALOT to do with it imho. But then again its MY opinion. As I have stated before my father obviously made the purchase not only because he felt it was a sound investment (if he only knew God rest his soul), but also felt as I do that it is truly a beautiful work of art. I believe that it truly does not matter a bit what name is on this watch because a tremendous amount of being a collector is the look and feel of a watch. When I was a kid I knew nothing about Rolex but only knew I loved the look of the watch.

What is so frustrating for me is what I deem an extremely inflexible stance that you have taken. Being a watchmaker and collector of fine watches to me your obviously taking the moral high ground. I simply refuse to believe that there cannot be room for both authentic and homage. BTW Wikipedia is an open source website and I prefer to use the Websters definition of homage

You have stated that Grovana which provides the private labeling facility for Steinhart and Debaufre "offend my sense of morality". To me that demonstrates the inflexibility of the existence of a company like the aforementioned.

Companies like Grovana offer a quality and affordable alternative to the SS Rolex Submariner that has gone from a very REASONABLE price when purchased back in 1962 to the ridiculous cost of over $5000.00+ they garner today.

I will never be able to afford to buy the high-end watches I would like to add to my collection and believe if there are companies that provide a quality and affordable alternative and are respected by the other collectors that I communicate with, I will gladly welcome them as additions to my collection. I absolutely agree that companies that make exact replicas are reprehensible.

Its possible I'm angry because it is my "grail" watch and my dad's was ripped off by one of my so called friends in my miss-spent youth. Hmmm possibly. I do not mean to offend I simply want to reply to say how this thread affected me having read it 3 years after originally been written. That is my POV. Warm regards,

Matt
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Message 64 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to May 14, 2009 11:10:23 AM
rechtien
Enthusiast
Forgot to mention, the person I am referring to is soccerkid_78.

Again, with apologies for being off topic.

Rechtien
3,528 Views
Message 65 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Aug 14, 2010 8:24:18 AM
grosserkurfurst
Enthusiast
With an attitude of benign detachment, I've been reading this thread from the opening statement and found it to be a wonderful example of behavioural interplay in an emotional environment. However, this parody posting absolutely derailed my intention to remain at arm's-length from the fray. It summarizes the position of the two 'camps' with an eclat rarely found in discussions of opposing opinions and now i find myself strapping on my gear and joining the fun, so here goes:

Like favouring Aerosmith to the Rolling Stones, accepting an imitation on its own merits without trying to compare it to the original is perfectly acceptable behaviour - each party can be content with the qualities of their chosen favourite. An assault by either on the other suggests as insecurity by the initiating aggressor who is trying to offset a perceived negative impact on its chosen by the target. In this thread, the perceived threat and subsequent 'assault' led to a counter-attack which led to ...

]Life is a Standard Distribution wherein all things are Relative and all things are Situational.

This understood, a quick swipe with Occam's Razor shows that each protagonist is viewing the question in hand through 'rosy reds' tinted by their perceptions that are Relative to their Situation and hence both are perfectly correct in most of their assumptions, claims, and opinions, from their POV! It is this overall constraint on the 'structure' of the argument that makes a resolution nigh-on impossible other than for a truce or an acceptance that the opponent has some good points, 'but'...

Pardon the lecturing - bad habit! - must correct! - now, on with reading the rest of this thread!
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Message 66 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Aug 14, 2010 8:31:24 AM
grosserkurfurst
Enthusiast
Oh... first posting and my inexperience with the techniques shows!

This is a reply to 'gregorywatches' excellent post of Dec 31, 2006 11:24 P.M. on page 3 of this thread.

Please check this post and then my effort may make a little more sense!
3,528 Views
Message 67 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Aug 14, 2010 7:05:50 PM
ketchup.soul
Scout
this thread has been ... interesting Smiley Happy

people do have their own opinions (valid or not - but then, that's my opinion) and I respect that

but back to the original question about Swiss watches being overpriced,
(not including appreciation/depreciation, market value)
if you buy the high end watches (the Vacheron Constantine, Lange & Sohne, Blancpain, AP, Piaget, etc) AND appreciate and you value excellence and craftmanship then no, I dont think they are overpriced

when you get to the mid-range luxury watch, then it gets tricky from then on
3,528 Views
Message 68 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Aug 15, 2010 12:06:05 PM
gunniejames
Scout
Theres really no answer to this question.
if you take someone who has no clue about watches and put a rolex, omega, and a citizens. do you think they would know the difference?

it all how its marketed and supply and demand; demand and supply.

Patek; keep the supply low, exclusive (its not made out of solid diamonds) vs a seiko sell mass volume (material cost maybe even more) and flood the market. revenues are probably the same. (%) taking into factor overhead, labor, marketing cost, etc...

There is just too many variables that play a factor. supply and demand; demand and supply, name rec. the last thing that really plays a factor when something is valued is the quality. yes it does play a factor but its the last thing.

I've worked for the Hyundai group (finance/Marketing)
for awhile. first we flooded the market." hey look at me"
then ; now we restrict the flow of supply. Now the residual has went from 37-38% to 58-61%. has the cars gotten that much better / no. prime example, GM did allot of fleet deals; flooded the market= low residual, Honda no fleet deals. residual 3x what a GM goes for. chevy malibu and camry 90% same but which on has the higher residual?

same can be said for rugs, wine, baseball cards. (1/10) only 10 of these cards made. the strasburg card 1/1 sold for how much? over 10k? its just a sheet of paper.

There is really no answer for this question, it all what ones willing top pay, i look at my GMT pepsi, and i look at my tissot... same thing. same functions.

Certain things never change. basics of marketing. too many variables that play a factor. but as some one said a watch is a watch. They all do the same thing.

looking over everyone's posts. noone has a definitive answer. and wont have one . that's why this post has gone on for so long and will go on.
are swiss watches over priced? who's to say. investment? maybe but not the best. cant sell my beritiling 6.75 for 3k. paid almost 7 3 years ago. This one is a different case as well. every joe blow has a fake glass shard bezel bently on. (counterfit market, other makers like "AK" making the same looking watches) are they investments? who knows; my opninion ; not the best.

anyone have any GOLD for sale?
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Message 69 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Oct 6, 2013 2:34:03 AM
brisvegas1963
Pathfinder

The US dollar has depreciated 95% against the Swiss Franc over the past 40 years. This gives the false illusion that Swiss watches are expensive and appreciate in value. In fact the watches are still about the same price in Swiss Francs but the dollars used to purchase them are virtually worthless. The only reason the price of a Rolex or other Swiss watch continues to increase is becaues the dollar is worth less every year.

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Message 70 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Oct 13, 2013 7:32:34 PM
u2lackfocus
Pathfinder

Dig up 3+ year old threads much?

 

Interesting read.  Gregory obviously has refined taste but just doesn't seem to understand you can't explain that to a philistine like jacketwatch.  Some people get it, others will never understand.  Gregory - you would have had better luck teaching your dog algebra then explaining veblen goods to a plebeian.  

 

Hey jacketwatch, there's a simple way to tell if something is overpriced: when nobody buys it and the company is forced to lower the price or go out of business.  Fine mechanical Swiss watches are getting more & more popular while more & more people are snickering at TV brands.  I'd take one Rolex over 2 dozen Steinfarts - and Rolex is the manufacturer I prefer LEAST of high end watches.

 

Now, the attached photo is a REAL watch.

 

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Message 71 of 79
IMG_5494.JPG

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Oct 15, 2013 12:37:00 AM
vintagewatchworks
Thrill-Seeker

 

@u2lackfocus:

 

A very nice example of the artistry in a finely finished movement... black polished screw heads, Côtes de Genève (Geneva striping) on the bridges with circular perlage on the plates below.  Even the movement ring has fine guilloché scalloped engraving.  A careful view of every small escapement parts and train wheels shows that each part has been carefully hand-finished.  This is art in its highest form, deserving of the the Poinçon de Genève (Geneva Seal) on the far right side of the movement.

 

I can't immediately identify the movement, but Patek, Chopard, Cartier, V&C or Roger Dubuis are the usual culprits for fine work like this.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

3,489 Views
Message 72 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Feb 1, 2014 1:07:08 AM
brisvegas1963
Pathfinder

Gregory you are repeating the same tired and thoroughly misleading watch industry propaganda.

 

The real reason that Swiss watches are expensive is the massive marketing budgests and huge retail margins. These increase the price of the watch by a factor of 10.

 

There is no such thing as buying a watch as an investment. All watches lose value. In fact a Swiss watch is lucky to retain even 25% of it's value (adjusted for inflation) after a few decades even if it is in perfect condition. 

 

How can gold-plating, engraving  and blued screws possibly make a watch movement more accurate and reliable? An ETA is an ETA whether it is stock or refinished.

 

Any watchmaker knows that that there are many extremly cheap mechanical watches that last for decades. Even the Indian HMT watches that sell new for as little as $8 can easily last for 40 or 50 years with routine servicing. Many people have 40 year old Seiko 5 watches that are still ticking away reliably after 40 years without ever being serviced.

 

There are plenty of horror stories around about Patek Phillipe reliability.

3,395 Views
Message 73 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Mar 7, 2014 5:14:37 PM
am4872
Adventurer
I know this is an old thread but it's a very interesting topic. I like the way the corvette was rebranded Steinhart. But is it a good analogy? If one was to copy the corvette and it have the same performance as the real thing I believe the price would be the same. Agree? Now apply that to watches. Steinhart makes a several Rolex "homages" at a much, much lower price. They have sapphire crystals, made of stainless steel, same depth rating etc. and come with a movement that can be regulated to preform within COSC standards. So you can produce a watch at a much lower price which performs as well as the original. So I believe the car analogy is incorrect in every respect. Now you can have a debate over finish and I believe that Rolex has a nicer finish, but in the end what's the difference besides the price? The name on the watch and the finish of the movement. A movement that you cannot even view. Does it justify the extra price? All depends on who you ask. And what about Tudor? A rolex with a ETA. Should they be looked down upon because they don't have an "in house" movement? Have not the original Tudors gone up in price? Now take into account people who like the look of a Rolex but cannot afford one. Should they be shamed because of their lack of disposable income and buy a homage instead? Steinharts are quality watches and so happen to still be around despite what was stated in a previous post . In fact they have recently released their own "in house" movement (modified ETA?). And those who would complain about a modified ETA, many higher end watches use modified ETA's. Omega up until the 8500. I'm not here to debate either side. I own an Omega and also own a Steinhart and am saving for a Rolex. I would like to say that everyone has their own preferences and because you may disagree does not make you right. Everyone has different values, when it come to watches, and should not be looked down upon because they are not agreeable with yours. I despise watch snobs. We are all here on these forums because we all like watches. You ask someone who is not a WIS about our tastes in watches and they would think we are all crazy for even having a watch, believing watches have gone the way of the dinosaur. Now I will get off my soap box and say we all have the same interest in watches but because I choose not to buy a PP or I cannot afford one does not make you better because you can. Besides I bet 90% of watch collectors and people who visit these forums cannot even afford one.

Just my 2cents.
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Message 74 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Mar 30, 2014 8:54:52 AM
zigmad
Explorer

Back in 1968, while on a 5 day R&R (rest & relaxation) in Hong Kong, I paid U.S. $ 250.00 for a brand new Rolex GMT Master chronometer in stainless steel with all the paper work. I still have the watch, only having it cleaned and polished one time at a authorized Rolex dealer in the USA. I gave the watch to my son. Today, this same watch runs in the neighborhood of $ 4,000.00. which so overpriced and anyone that spends so much for it needs to have their head examined, to put it mildly. Most Swiss watches are grossly overpriced. I don't care for Rolex because I now prefer a larger size 47mm/48mm case on my timepieces, not the 40mm Rolex sized case.

 

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Message 75 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to May 29, 2014 3:29:16 AM
001vic
Enthusiast
"I like the way the corvette was rebranded Steinhart. But is it a good analogy? If one was to copy the corvette and it have the same performance as the real thing I believe the price would be the same. Agree? Now apply that to watches. Steinhart makes a several Rolex "homages" at a much, much lower price. They have sapphire crystals, made of stainless steel, same depth rating etc. and come with a movement that can be regulated to preform within COSC standards. So you can produce a watch at a much lower price which performs as well as the original. So I believe the car analogy is incorrect in every respect."

Your 2cents are worth a million!

I wonder what a simple maintenance service would cost these days for, lets say; a Rolex Sub. You could probably buy two Steinharts!
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Message 76 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Jun 17, 2014 1:50:17 PM
tripp162
Adventurer
The Citizen and Myota quartz movements are slightly more accurate than the Swiss Ronda and usually less expensive, but if you want to stick to the old mechanical / automatics, the higher prices paid for swiss movements are often due to the stringent tests and long apprenticeships a swiss watchmaker must go through before they are bonified by the swiss government. Unless you are a name dropper, stick to the Seiko or Citizen autos.
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Message 77 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Dec 16, 2015 8:16:43 AM
co-prop
Rising Star
I have never heard of a gyroturbillon! It's sounds interesting, I would like to know what the difference is!
I wear a blue Rolex it's not really me so I'm looking at something with a leather strap which I prefer! Any suggestions?
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Message 78 of 79

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

Re: Swiss watches...overpriced?

in reply to Jan 2, 2017 7:15:19 PM
theosskthassk
Adventurer

RE: Steinhart and its value...

 

I Bought a Steinhart OVM, for around $400 US brand new from steinhart, have recently sold it for $600 US 2 years later.

 

I also recently bought a Steinhart Ocean one Bronze for about $420 US I believe, also brand new from Steinhart. The day I bought it, I checked Ebay and saw one being sold by an American, Brand new for $550 and another used for $499, both sold. (people obviously dont trust buying from europe or think they'd have to wait too long to receive it, which they wouldn't Steinhart has incredibly fast shipping as long as they aren't on vacation)

 

My point being, some ETA based microbrands do retain and increase in value. This is not a phenomenon inherent only to high end luxury swiss watches. This doesn't mean that all ETA based microbrands will retain or increase, but some do. Others that do well are Oris, Christopher Ward, Longines, Breitling, IWC, etc...all of these use ETA, some are microbrands (Christopher ward) others are major brands (Longines, Breitling, IWC)

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Message 79 of 79