Mail Fraud

[buckeyesforthrifting]

 5 times this year I have had buyers wait until the day I leave them positive feedback to open return request. I leave feedback 2-4 weeks after they have received the item. Even though I clearly state that I have a no retern unless damaged or not as described I get these request for returns.  Some people claim damage or just dont like the item. I know if I get a damaged item I contact the seller right away not 3 weeks later on the day they leave me positive feedback... This just happened again today and I am tired of it. Is there anything that can be done to stop this? 

I wish eBay had a policy that if an item is damaged they must notify you within a couple days. None of the buyers wanted to return the items either. I believe it is just mail fraud and eBay is an accesory to it.

[pingpong517]

you are correct..seesm there is a scam...they complain, want return, but really just pushing to see if you will refund all or part....

best it to, as one said, no feedback....but even with that...since sellers can't leave anything but positive or nohing..that isn't a big factor..

SO, you say , oh sorry.. return for refund... and thats all you say to any responce..nicely..but return for refund....

and almost all seem to fade away... if they leave negative feedback, you might get it removed, but it's possible not.... BUT you stick to policy and procedure....and yes live with this wave of scamming ....

we all get them..all, most, a lot, many...too often!

[vintagecraze50]

RETURN for Refund, is the response. You may have been getting some people just toying with you to see if you will give them a partial. When they do not want to send the item back, that is usually the tactic .They wait to see if you will give them a partial refund.  Just say, Return for refund. No need to refund if they refuse to send it back.

[vintagecraze50]

Adding to my last response that this is a tactic that has been used for decades on here.  It just will not go away. So use the appropriate response, if they back off, good, if they return it good. Move on, block the buyer and continue with your happy happy customers who love you.

[zinda2010]

blocking is just a waste of time, how many buyers do you have that are repeat buyers in the first place let alone repeat problem buyers? I have 1 or 2 repeat buyers in a month with 60-100 sales, those that are repeat buyers are the same 5 or 6 that have been buying from me since i started. the chances of running into a problem buyer a second time is very slim to none as far as i am concerned you are simply blocking buyers who will probably not even have an active Id after a few months time anyway. And maybe that buyer wasn't really trying to be a jerk maybe they made a mistake or were confused and the way you handled it made it seem that much worse than it could have been, who knows maybe they buy again and it's fine or even better they buy again and you can finally have proof of them being a problem buyer and use that against them and maybe get your defects removed because of it?

[tomuchstuff5]

@vintagecraze50

@buckeyesforthrifting

@sidemouse

@zinda2010

@myangelandmyprincess

Received item back in good order (thankful for this) and hit the refund button, wanted to do it before Ebay saw the tracking and did it for me (thru the case of course). Accepting the return was NEVER the issue. Customer basically had buyers remorse (found for less). Stated several reasons in a accusatory message of why I should let her keep them and give her an 85 percent refund. NONE of the reasons had anything at all to do with the quality , condition or speed of arrival of the product. She did try to say they were not the brand,,,,,(Even SHE admitted they were in case not as described doesn't match photo's),sent proof with the return for refund instructions or hard to find ...........sent as much proof as I could on that because there's not much to provide ( hard to find). 

I understand that she tried the get it for less, I will not entertain a refund of that size on a NON-ISSUE with the product which is vintage item . I politely offered return for refund under CORRECT reason (found for less). I did not ask for restocking to cover to buyer shipping, time et. Was willing to eat that in the interest of customer service, taking one for the team et. EVEN considering her attitude and insistence that she keep it and get a big refund. It was not like she asked for a little refund or I had talked her into buying them. I never had any communication with her until she was asking for the huge refund directly after me leaving a positive feedback. I maintained complete professionalism regardless of the attack. 

Contact customer service explaining to them, told buyer they could return, but buyer has stated wrong reason for return to avoid return shipping (not to mention the extortion attempt also). 2 different CS say DO NOTHING (don't accept return) after 3 days we will step in and buyer will pay return shipping if they choose to return. Questioned them on defect for not resolving,  no you won't get a defect because BUYER has VIOLATED OUR POLICY in this case and WE WILL rule in your favor. 

After they ruled in buyers favor I talked to a 3rd CS who was at least honest. Yes buyer violated policy and was dishonest and yes it is going to cost you a defect, FV fees and return shipping. I will report buyer though ( I already did). Thanks for being professional about all this. 

So if Ebay wants to protect sellers and entertain unreasonable buyer requests( violations of their seller protections policy) maybe CS 1 should have resolved by saying WE will protect you as a seller and send the buyer the return label at out cost and make note of this buyers violation of policy. STORY OVER for this transaction. After they have done that once or even twice send a warning, (this buyer feedback reflects a very long history of unfavorable buyer behavior) maybe a BIG RED FLAG will come up and something will happen by 3rd or 4th violation . How much would have been saved in additional effort by myself , buyer and Ebay CS rep expenses. 

Defect and negative do not make me a bad seller, just one that was not protected by seller protection policy after explicitly being told I was by customer service that is supposedly there to assist. If you are not going to protect at least offer a know your buyer filter that reflects a feature to block buyers with a high percentages of transactions receiving refunds , cases , returns or negatives. Once an unknown buyer purchases, you are at their mercy. You are required to ship as long as they paid and provided a proper address, and once they have it there is not much you can do. 

On top of that if you have lived near the woods you put  some type of keep out closure for the bandits on the waste can. What happens when one finds out they can get past that closure pretty easy and there free grub in there? The next time you see them they bring their Friends and Family. I believe this is why the snowball effect on excessive returns and refund requests. I would rather have people bring their friends and family for other reasons. I hate that I cannot leave a postive for a buyer for fear it is going to generate a refund request. Good honest customers deserve that acknowledgment that you appreciate there business. 

Same applies to a toddler throwing a temper tantrum to get there way. Once you give in, the precedent has been set and the next tantrum is going to last longer. If you have kids, you already know what I mean.   

You cannot just keep on adding it to selling prices on other listings to be paid by other honest buyers. It not fair to them. Just insist on better buyer behavior when one is abusing the system. Shipping is an expense. Its like a double whammy when you add it to sales column and not the expense column. 

I think I have covered most frustrations on this subject. Thanks for lsitening.

Filing appeal for removal of defect, will let you know how it turns out. More time invested that never should have been necessary. 

[sidemouse]

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@tomuchstuff5 wrote:

@vintagecraze50

@buckeyesforthrifting

@sidemouse

@zinda2010

@myangelandmyprincess

Received item back in good order (thankful for this) and hit the refund button, wanted to do it before Ebay saw the tracking and did it for me (thru the case of course). Accepting the return was NEVER the issue. Customer basically had buyers remorse (found for less). Stated several reasons (etc)

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I don't mean to cut you off but the story repeats itself with these folk, yes I've had a lot of issues with that remorse garbage myself (and others as well, such as 'borrowing items with a refundable deposit').

I have probably had close to 100 returns over the years, maybe more, maybe less but enough... I did something for myself, from early out I decided to study the returns system.  Now I am fairly familiar with the system and on the odd day someone can get over on me but ... And here's where things take a turn for the ugly, so to speak.

I know today how to win and lose cases however most IF done properly are cut and dry, you know what's coming and how it's going to end. That may not sound like much but it does help, to know these things.

The ugly part you ask?

I've recently won a few cases (not many) and it is unfortunate, it is very unfortunate.

I believe the buyer got the short end of the stick, I really do.

But like yourself I get the short stick all the rest of the time, so nowadays I win what I win and I lose what I lose and I've stopped worrying about what is right and what is wrong... It's not up to me to decide these things anymore, even thou like yourself I can tell full well which buyers are so full of it too!

You see, someone once told me...

The trick to ebay is to accept someone else's leadership as your own.

Have a good day, it has been a pleasure reading this thread.

[toc460]

I know exactly what you’re going through, I’m in your shoes right now! I stopped selling on eBay because of that.

This is a pure scam, and I think eBay is also part of this …there is no other explanation.

eBay’s policy clearly states:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/return-policy.html

"If you accept returns, a buyer can return an item for any reason, even if they change their mind about a purchase. This is true as long as the return meets your return requirements…”

…but then comes the Money Back Guaranty policy, overpowering other polices!!!!!!!

So, you might ask yourself, what is the point of making many conflicting polices? …and the answer is simple………..SCAM!!!

I could write whole book about how the scam works, but I will give you just one of my (last) experience with eBay’s representative …buy the way, because of my bad English, thanks for keeping your story short 😉

I called eBay:

…of course, I was scammed……………..bla bla bla……………….and then she told me “when a buyer return the item to you, you can release for higher price”………………………….wow, seriously?????? …and I told her “if I agreed to buyer’s request now, than how I know if the item I will receive is still in the same/working condition? " …first I have to test it, then do refund!

What happened, one day I came back from work and I see the package. Right away I checked my PayPal account, and the money for the item and both ways shipping was gone …how convenient!!!!! (I still haven’t open it to check if is working, I doubt that)

[toc460]

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@sidemouse wrote:

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I've recently won a few cases (not many) and it is unfortunate, it is very unfortunate.

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Selling on eBay shouldn’t be about how many cases I was able to win!!!

[myangelandmyprincess]

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@toc460 wrote:

I know exactly what you’re going through, I’m in your shoes right now! I stopped selling on eBay because of that.

This is a pure scam, and I think eBay is also part of this …there is no other explanation.

eBay’s policy clearly states:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/return-policy.html

"If you accept returns, a buyer can return an item for any reason, even if they change their mind about a purchase. This is true as long as the return meets your return requirements…”

…but then comes the Money Back Guaranty policy, overpowering other polices!!!!!!!

So, you might ask yourself, what is the point of making many conflicting polices? …and the answer is simple………..SCAM!!!

I could write whole book about how the scam works, but I will give you just one of my (last) experience with eBay’s representative …buy the way, because of my bad English, thanks for keeping your story short 😉

I called eBay:

…of course, I was scammed……………..bla bla bla……………….and then she told me “when a buyer return the item to you, you can release for higher price”………………………….wow, seriously?????? …and I told her “if I agreed to buyer’s request now, than how I know if the item I will receive is still in the same/working condition? " …first I have to test it, then do refund!

What happened, one day I came back from work and I see the package. Right away I checked my PayPal account, and the money for the item and both ways shipping was gone …how convenient!!!!! (I still haven’t open it to check if is working, I doubt that)

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It's not conflicting policies.  Your return polciies apply to remorse returns.  The MBG applies to returns were the buyer claims snad

[tomuchstuff5]

@toc460

@sidemouse

Sidemouse , Get what you are saying SSDD, move on- except Buyer got the short end of the stick ?

Facecious maybe?   A wise woman learns from the mistakes of others. Thats why I am here reading seller experience. I will follow any leadership that is moving the group forward to greener pastures. Never been one to drink the koolaid or leap from the bridge just because that is what everyone else is doing. The sellers issuing a unnecessary or undeserved refund, accepting a no valid issue return (on no returns) at their expense and so on to survive is not working. I understand it's a business decision based on whats my time worth, fear of negs and defects. The fact is that it is snowballing the problem. I have done it myself.  I am not talking about when it is the appropriate answer to a valid order issue or a somewhat gray area .

[sidemouse]

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@tomuchstuff5 wrote:

@toc460

@sidemouse

Sidemouse , Get what you are saying SSDD, move on- except Buyer got the short end of the stick ?

Facecious maybe?   A wise woman learns from the mistakes of others. Thats why I am here reading seller experience. I will follow any leadership that is moving the group forward to greener pastures. 

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I should have clarified...

The attitude the buyer has towards me initially makes a big difference to me, what they say, how they say it.  For example...

The other day I had ordered 2 x 12pcs of a widget, several days later I received 2x pcs of this widget in the mail... I was upset initially but decided to send the following to the seller:

"When I ordered 2 of these I was under the impression I would receive 2x12 Pcs Widget (24 total) and what I got instead was two each, please advise."

The seller's response:

I sell a 2 pack and in my rush to get orders out I must have looked at the 2 QTY and thought you ordered 2! I have the rest on the way.

..............

Thus I can attest that as a buyer, I have always gotten the best response from sellers when I approach them in a factual, non-accusatory, non-demanding mannerAND (this I believe is crucial as well) I leave it up to the seller on how they wish to resolve the issue.

The same is true for buyers when I am a seller, I am more inclined to bend over backwards towards the buyer that is simply stating fact and asking ME what I think can be done, leaving the options for me (granted you can still run into uncooperative sellers this way as well)...

However, when a buyer comes off accusing me of wrong-doing and demanding a resolution to where they at times even spell out what I should do to appease make things right, I can assure you my degree of helpfulness has just stepped down a few notches.

You may not notice the difference, but if you're rude to me and I can win a case...?

That's basically what I was referring to earlier, unfortunately the wind gets long and so I cut things short.

[zinda2010]

What you have posted is pretty much what ebay has become and has also forced sellers to change their way of thinking, 1 point you have implied but not came out and said (I'm basing this on the fact that you seem to stand your ground when you suspect the buyer is lying and I respect that, I myself have been recommending this for many years as a way to deter this activity) is the fact that you are to a point now where you are not in fear of the DEFECT. This is where 99% of all sellers drop the ball.

When sellers are so afraid of getting a defect, they have just fell victim to ebays plan, if more sellers quit admitting guilt to things they did not do, then ebay would have so many sellers with below standard status that they would be forced to rethink the entire plan. but with so many caving and not fighting for what's right and trying to keep this place under control and free from fraud by implementing the tools as they should be. The only way to stop this rampant fraud and extortion is to quit allowing it to take place so easily.

If even 50% of these cases were challenged ebay would notice that there is a huge resistance to allowing buyers to get away with flat out fraud. I myself have not seen as many returns as others but mine cost me on average around $60 out of my pocket so it's not something that can simply be accepted and be part of my business model as others can. The last one that made me quit selling cost me well over $100 and with only $600 in sales per month for the last 3 months with 4 bogus returns added into it, I end up making next to nothing for all the work I put into each sale.

I had to make a decision to stop selling and try another way to recoop my lost funds that ebay took from me on so many occasions. I'm now prepared to face them in court with a mountain of proof on my side. I'm lucky I bought a 30 lb box of paper and I have 3 laser printers with 10 toner carts to get stated printing everything up.

My largest problem is going to be organizing it all so i can properly present everything without any delays when I have my chance.

Few have gone to court with the amount of real evidence I have compiled, and many have won with very little proof other than 1 or 2 sales that had only a few dollars involved mostly just for fees charged on relisted items and similar issues. none have proof exposing tactics that range from Fraud and aiding in Defrauding sellers to unfair business practices that show fixed search engine results based on location from me to make me pay the highest possible shipping costs, and if the buyers weren't in zones 6, 7 or 8, those buyers were 3 times as likely to be problem buyers who will try to do these same actions listed here or they were more likely to leave bad feedback without and proof or reason. I have it all plotted over the past year and I'm going to go back another year tonight.

These things that happen here are not happening by chance, ebay controls everything and doesn't want us to ever discuss the many aspects of our sales with others. Like where you live and where your sales are being shipped. I have almost 3 times as many large items shipped to zones 6, 7 & 8, those orders cost between $24-$44 to ship 1 way, compared to zones 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 costing $9-$22/ Plus with only 123 total orders shipped to zones 1-5 and 7 problems (unfounded returns or bad feedback) and 355 total orders shipped to zones 6-8 with only 6 problems.

Logic would say that closer shipped items should not have more damages during shipping, the fraudulent claims of damages (since I have only had 1 real damaged item returned to me) would be believable if they were reversed but since honest buyers are buying my items in the farthest shipping locations it shows that the chances of having anything damaged during shipping is very low and shows that bad buyers are used to target sellers to provide them with the defects that ebay uses against their sellers by increasing fees and cutting benefits from stores subscriptions that we are trapped into paying for and never allowed to opt out when new policies roll out that will dramatically affect us and removing any of the original benefits that were offered when we first signed up for the store.

Once they have you below standard Small sellers cannot ever overcome the defects and are limited in listings that makes your store subscription cost you more than if you were paying for each listing without any free listings (as you were promised when you signed up for the store).

[zinda2010]

that's the old map this is the newest updated map sorry

[toc460]

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@sidemouse wrote:

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@tomuchstuff5 wrote:

@toc460

@sidemouse

Sidemouse , Get what you are saying SSDD, move on- except Buyer got the short end of the stick ?

Facecious maybe?   A wise woman learns from the mistakes of others. Thats why I am here reading seller experience. I will follow any leadership that is moving the group forward to greener pastures. 

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I should have clarified...

The attitude the buyer has towards me initially makes a big difference to me, what they say, how they say it.  For example...

The other day I had ordered 2 x 12pcs of a widget, several days later I received 2x pcs of this widget in the mail... I was upset initially but decided to send the following to the seller:

"When I ordered 2 of these I was under the impression I would receive 2x12 Pcs Widget (24 total) and what I got instead was two each, please advise."

The seller's response:

I sell a 2 pack and in my rush to get orders out I must have looked at the 2 QTY and thought you ordered 2! I have the rest on the way.

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I see you still don’t get it. Your example is about honest seller and honest buyer. We are talking about honest seller and dishonest buyer.

Imagine that honest seller sent 24 pcs, dishonest buyer said he received only 2 pcs …and in many cases dishonest buyer don’t even bother to contact honest seller.

So, dishonest buyer comes here to have an advice, and then eBay will approve his "little" scam.

If you still don’t understand, sorry for taking your precious time.

[tomuchstuff5]

@toc460

@sidemouse

 I get what both of you are saying. I really need experience or tips on winning cases, whats my best shot. I am not giving in anymore. If a good customer of mine came and politely asked for assistance with a problem and I was ever so polite because I do understand CS. Instead it seems Ebay assumed I was a doormat. I am afraid by sellers allowing the dishonest and scammer discounts , INAD,  and returns without a fight, we are condoning being doormats. 

Anyhow, sales for 25 yrs myself which included CS resolution. Attitude is everything. Will bend over backwards for the honest ones , even if its their fault in the interest of the greater good. Scammer and dishonest. Just want to nail them. Tired of eating it. What Sidemouse is saying is a bad attitude limits the greater good options. Puts you into a refer to your contract situation. AKA open a case. Problem being Ebay is not honoring the contract AKA seller protections. It is usually the dishonest that have a bad attitude because they hope you will quell the tantrum by doing what ever they want which is usually your stuff for free, plus free transportation. And once again Ebay ! Shipping is an expense, not a sale. 

The sad fact as I see it is the good honest buyers are the ones that suffer along with the sellers. You had to give the farm to scammers and dishonest so there is no flex to take care of a good buyer when there is a gray area or they didn't quite finish reading the description. Then you have to say no, which makes Ebay look bad to the people that count. I don't think they get it. Or maybe it is true, they just don't care. Good Buyers and Sellers alike are disposable.