Dummy package mail fraud

[erwina11_3]

Hello Friends,

We have been victimized by what appears to be a Dummy Package Scam involving 3 cell phones purchased on Ebay and paid for via PayPal. Neither Ebay nor PayPal gave more than a cursory review of our filings and rejected out of hand our claims including Appeals. Clearly their Protection Plans are at best flimsy and at worst a Hoax.

Sadly, the phones were purchased from 3 different, first time Sellers who shipped them from the same Post Office via USPS on separate days spread over 2 weeks. We have detailed USPS Tracking Reports that clearly demonstrate false addresses for receipt. PayPal's response is that they have Strong documentation from the Sellers that Delivery occurred, and our only recourse is to contact the Seller.

Good Luck with that. All emails to the Sellers either by Hotmail or Gmail were promptly bounced back as Undeliverable. The point is that Delivery may have occurred but not to our address - a subtle but critical detail that continues to be overlooked by both Ebay and PayPal.

Sound Familiar? Sure looks to us like Mail Fraud.

The next steps that we are considering are to 1) File Report with USPIS 2) File Report with local Police 3) Contact FBI Mail Fraud Division.

Our questions are if anyone has had a similar, recent experience and was there a successful outcome? i.e. did you get your money back from either Ebay or PayPal? What additional steps should we consider?

Looks like a long slog, but after all we are out nearly $1000.

Many thanks,

[couldabeenworse]

If you funded with credit card, that is the best place to get this resolved quickly.  eBay and PayPal protections rely heavily on bots or low-level employees.  That works fine for ordinary cases, but not for yours.

Is there more to this story?  Do you have the actual delivery address and is it in your ZIP? 

[axelenie0]

Most sellers would hardly be interested in doing this, mostly because so long the seller sent it to the address you supplied with your pay pal payment they are in the clear.  If they sent it to the wrong address other than what you supplied then you win.  It comes down to one or the other.

Unfortunately with your having opened cases and them finding against you, I suspect the error is on your end. The seller can only ship to the address that you have on your paypal account at time of payment, otherwise they aren't protected under the seller protection. You need to make sure your address is correct before you pay. If this is the case the only thing that you can do is wait for the package to get returned to the sender and have it reshipped with the correct address, understandably in some cases the seller may not be too keen on that idea.

If you supplied the correct address and the seller shipped wrong you should have still received something other than what you ordered, a seller simply shipping your item to some wrong address would not be a wise choice for a seller to make (in terms of an actual scam).

[postingid2017]

@erwina11_3 - from reading your post, I would think that your best bet would be to file the Mail Fraud w/USPS and police reports from the seller's address(s) and maybe your local PD.  I am so sorry that you have experienced this.  I am not sure if your CC company because you stated that the items said "Delivered," but it will not hurt to try them also.  If these are indeed new sellers, the funds should be on hold. 

Again, I am sorry 😞

[chiaretta]

We all started from zero, but trusting totally new sellers with items averaging 333.33$ each is a risk I will never take, especially not for technology.

One tenth of that value I am willing to risk losing, not a cent more

[couldabeenworse]

a seller simply shipping your item to some wrong address would not be a wise choice for a seller to make (in terms of an actual scam).

The classic scam is for a crook to send any parcel with tracking to any address in the buyer's ZIP.  Since the ZIP is the only part of the address that shows online, eBay and PayPal decide the case in the seller's favor if tracking shows delivery to that ZIP.

I don't know if that's what's happened here, but it is a known scam technique.

[bonjourami]

Odd that three phones from three different sellers are all mia. I could see one scammer seller sending to a different address than yours,in the same zipe code,but three? If you are positive you provided your correct address to these sellers, is it possible the packages were stolen from your doorstep?  

[hafoster]

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@bonjourami wrote:

Odd that three phones from three different sellers are all mia. I could see one scammer seller sending to a different address than yours,in the same zipe code,but three?

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The key is all three "phones" were mailed from the same post office, spread out over 2 weeks.

[duchess-at-speakeasy]

"The next steps that we are considering are to 1) File Report with USPIS 2) File Report with local Police 3) Contact FBI Mail Fraud Division."

You should have done all 3 of these FIRST! USPS should be able to give you the actual delivery address -- all packages can be traced by GPS -- and then you can file the necessary reports. USPS takes mail fraud very seriously. This "same zip code" scam has become very common.

~~C~~

[mingotoy]

Look at the 3 sellers and tell us how much feedback each one has.  Can you tell us when they started on ebay?  Look at their feedback and there should be a month/ year somewhere near their feedback. I am wondering if it's the same seller w/ different address/ebay names.  ALso is it possible that the items were stolen from your porch/hall.  

It makes me wonder if the packages were stolen at the post office.  Anyway,  jot down the tracking numbers and go to the post office tomorrow .  Get a supervisor.  They can check their system and it will tell them more information like the name of the carrier, etc.    Perhaps , there is some pattern where a carrier is stealing items., etc.

Did you fund with a credit card?  If yes, call them and explain.  Now the problem that I see if you go this way,  is that they might not give you 3 refunds. One maybe.    Anyway, goodluck.  Keep us posted.

[deep-garnet-red]

I'm surprised that eBay hasn't found in your favor if you have actual documentation showing this is the 
"Same Zip Code" scam. I have seen cases on these boards in which the buyer was refunded in this type of case. I would keep insisting to go up the chain of command.

[erwina11_3]

Thank-you everyone for your kind responses. It is so good to know we are not alone and that people care. I will try to answer most of your questions here rather than to answer all of you individually.

We know that we made a huge mistake buying from these new sellers with no selling history. We were not paying enough attention. After buying and selling successfully on Ebay for over 5 years and only ever having extremely minor issues, we were lulled into a false sense of security. We thought Ebay and Paypal would have our back. I have to say that, previously, all of the sellers we dealt with were wonderful people. Compounding our problem, it was a stressful time for us. So we are really shocked by this. 

1. Our address was absolutely correct when we placed the orders. We checked several times.

2. When the packages did not arrive on time, we checked the shipping and delivery notification emails. The initial USPS tracking report only showed the zipcode and not the street address. 2 of the 3 packages had the correct zip code, the 3rd did not. At this point we were thinking there had been a slight mix-up in transit, not Fraud.

3. We contacted USPS to provide us with the exact addresses to which the phones had been delivered. USPS did provide us with a more detailed Tracking Report. None of the packages were directed to the correct street address. We did not recognize any of the addresses to which our merchandize had been delivered. 

4. As soon as we realized we might have a problem, we tried to contact all 3 sellers at their addresses on file at Ebay. We tried both Gmail and Hotmail several times on different computers, but all enquiries came back as "Undeliverable". At this point we knew we had a real problem on our hands.

5. Around this time, Ebay informed us the 30 days had run out on their Purchase Protection Plan and we needed to pursue the matter through Paypal.  So we opened a Dispute with Paypal. We opened a Dispute, a Claim and an Appeal. All of which were denied with a statement that we needed to resolve the issue with the seller. Paypal claims to have STRONG proof of delivery of the items, but we have no idea of what that proof consists of because they promptly closed the Appeals without discussing the matter with us. To this day, we have not been able to contact the sellers.

6. Our Paypal account is connected to a bank, so we asked the bank for help and were refused. The bank said they would be bound by Paypal's decision. 

7. USPS tells us they are attempting to provide a more formal notice to Paypal.

I hope we have answered most of your questions.

[couldabeenworse]

Our Paypal account is connected to a bank

If you mean a checking account, that's a problem, but I'd still seek someone higher up at your bank.

If you mean a credit or debit card from you bank, call the number on the card, not your bank.

[needleinahaystack714714]

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@axelenie0 wrote:

Most sellers would hardly be interested in doing this, mostly because so long the seller sent it to the address you supplied with your pay pal payment they are in the clear.  If they sent it to the wrong address other than what you supplied then you win.  It comes down to one or the other.

Unfortunately with your having opened cases and them finding against you, I suspect the error is on your end. The seller can only ship to the address that you have on your paypal account at time of payment, otherwise they aren't protected under the seller protection. You need to make sure your address is correct before you pay. If this is the case the only thing that you can do is wait for the package to get returned to the sender and have it reshipped with the correct address, understandably in some cases the seller may not be too keen on that idea.

If you supplied the correct address and the seller shipped wrong you should have still received something other than what you ordered, a seller simply shipping your item to some wrong address would not be a wise choice for a seller to make (in terms of an actual scam).

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@axelenie0 This is actually a known and actual scam and scam sellers of higher priced items try this carp. They will send an envelope to a local CVS, empty building, department store, other apartment number in the complex, Chinese restaurant, judo studio, movie house, etc.... Any place within the same zip code as the buyer. They are gambling that the buyer will open an INR which of course they will get shut down immediately with the tracking number. They are also gambling that eBay and Paypal will stonewall the buyer like they usually do because the item tracks to the same zip code. Some sellers are so sleezy that they actually print out the shipping label to the buyer's address and then tape another address over the label.

Other buyers (and some sellers) have actually won these cases through eBay or Paypal with A LOT of leg work until they finally get someone who will actually listen that the address within the same zip code wasn't THEIR address. I personally would go straight to my credit card company with the proof from the PO that the address wasn't my address.

A few points on going this route.....

• This is the reason I always use a credit card to back my Paypal payments.... Not your paypal balance, not a gift card, not your bank account. This gives you another line of defense against fraudsters. I also do not use a debit card for the same reason. Others have said that debit card protection has improved and has the same protection as a credit card, but my understanding is it varies from bank to bank.
• Even your credit card has a limit for protection, so unless you want your credit card cancelled and your actual credit score affected (as it always is when a credit card is cancelled even if it is the card holder who cancelled it), you will use this method very sparingly.
• You really do need to vet your sellers very carefully especially on higher priced items... Cell phones are a scam magnate.
• If you are a seller, it is important to have separate buying and selling accounts, this will keep people from retaliating against you for a bad transaction. It is also important to have separate Paypal accounts since depending on the loss and if Paypal has to cover the loss... They may cancel your paypal account. With no Paypal account, most sellers are going to be left scrambling to find another merchant account and will probably find themselves paying a much higher rate.
• I also recommend discussing with your CC company a chargeback code that will not fall under Paypal's seller protection. The idea isn't to punish Paypal by just getting a refund, the idea is to get the money back FROM THE SELLER. There are actually CB codes that are almost impossible for the seller to win against... That's the one you want to choose.

Until eBay, Paypal and the PO stop just accepting the zip code only for proof of delivery, this scam will continue.  Even Amazon will force a refund unless the seller has signature confirmation on a "delivered" item.  I would not wish to see eBay go this route, and I'm not even certain that would stop the scam as I'm sure some waitress at the local Dim Sum restaurant would willingly sign she received an envelope.  eBay and Paypal need to pressure the PO to provide more information somehow.

[axelenie0]

Oh ok, I understand now but you see two can play this game.

File a SNAD, and send back an empty envelope.

Sadly that opens up another whole can of worms, but it doesn't affect this case.

I definitely agree on the vetting.

I have found the need to create Buying, selling, and posting ID's.