Empty Box Scam

[billiards74]

So, I sell (among other things) Rolex watches.

Last Tuesday evening, a customer having 60 or so feedbacks (all positive) makes a purchase for a $2700 Rolex. Promptly, Wednesday morning, I package up the watch, winding it, setting the time, and doing the final wipe-down to remove any residual fingerprints, and get it shipped out in a medium flat-rate box through the USPS.

The item was delivered on Friday at just at 3pm. Shows that it was signed for by the intended recipient. 

Friday night / Saturday morning (12:20 midnight), I get a message from the buyer saying he received an empty box. Naturally, I asked if he signed for it and if he himself opened it. No answer to those questions. I also asked for photos of EXACTLY what he received. He sends me 3 photos. 2 were of the inside of the box showing packing material, and one was of the top of the box where he cut through the shipping label and opened the box. In his initial statement he stated that he also "checked around the property and checked with the neighbors" to see if he could find the "merchandise".

So, being a Saturday, I could do nothing regarding opening a postal investigation. The watch was insured for the full sale price. So, just filing a claim with the PO wouldn't do much good without an official investigation.

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

After learning that I had opened a case with the PO, he decided, last night, to open an SNAD case with eBay. He also stated that he had already acquired a police report.

In one of his responses, he threatened "since I know your address, I will harass you". Adding, " I wouldn’t be surprised to receive negative feedback which will also ruin your credibility as a perfect seller for the next 12 months.". I know, I know. Both violations of the TOS. That will be discussed with eBay when customer service opens.

He has maintained that he has no intention of complying or cooperating with any investigation since I won't just issue him a refund.

After going through his feedback, I've actually looked at the types of items he's been buying. Get this... 90% of the items he's been purchasing have been for $0.99 or less. Some are auctions for a actual penny that is for local pick-up only; guaranteeing positive feedback upon completion of the $0.01 sale!

I have reported him and he has since been turned over to eBay's "Buyer Risk Assessment Team" due to evidence of suspicious or fradulent activity.

I still have no Idea as to how this is going to play out. 

Words of advice or encouragement anyone?????

[myboardid]

I'm not optimistic.  ebay always sides with the buyer, period.  You are not likely to get to keep that money.  However, I hope you scared the *** out of him with the police and fraud reports.  Also, it depends on how aggressive his local police are. 

[klassic*kids]

I'm sorry you are going through this.  Thankfully it was insured. Good luck with the police investigation.  And with all that you have stated here I'm sorry ebay might remove any negative feedback you may receive, though I'm sure that's the least of your worries now.  It seems bottom line: you are dealing with a sccammer.

[myboardid]

I meant to add - I would never sell anything here that is that expensive.  This sort of thing happens all too often.  You've been lucky if this is the first time. 

[billiards74]

He also sent another message with an attached photo showing the bottom of the box. It had 1 strip of electircal tape over top of the clear tape I use.

Now, there is absolutely no way on earth that the Post Office would ship something out with only one strip of electrical tape securing the bottom of the box. JUST WOULDN'T HAPPEN! No way it would get through the numerous scans and different hands along the way.

[unscrupulousintangibility]

Did you send this Registered Mail?

I think the break even point (USPS fees) is around $600. Any item over that value should be sent Registered, insured for the full amount.

It's less expensive at $600 or more - and much more secure.

Registered is handled outside the mailstream and every employee who handles it has to sign for it. 

You use brown tape (non-shiny) around all openings (flaps, etc.) and USPS employee hand stamps them.

Your carrier signs for the item, and also inspects it for tampering.

This is USPS'es premium service and Postal Inspectors take Registered Mail theft seriously.

[webwanna]

Did the USPS attempt to pick up the packaging yet?

My suggestion is to include the USPS case number in the SNAD case and inform them that the post office had not marked the box as empty or missing contents upon delivery.  The recipient is refusing to cooperate with the USPS insurance investigation.  

Wouldn't this be classified as felony theft in most states because of the value of the item?

I sell jewelry.... never something that expensive on Ebay but I stress on items even in the $500 range until I get the positive feedback from the customer.  I feel for you.  

[banana-posts]

This guy is probably looking at a federal felony charge if it's found he's committed fraud. He's already violated the TOS, so you could probably let him know that as any neg FB should be removed. 

You might also let the buyer know that his carrier is going to be brought into this to answer for an empty box on his watch. 

As a last resort, WHEN ebay automatically refunds him with your money. Contact your bank and file an unauthorized use of funds report. Depending on your bank, they will put the funds back into your account while they make their own investigation in concert with the USPS.

We, sellers are still consumers and have protections like anyone else. 

Anyone know where that famous post is? You know, the guy who said, "oh yes he does, he's got some explaining to do..." Referring to the carrier. This was from another empty box issue.

________________________________________

Day 9 - Lithium still having technical problems.

[billiards74]

A little over a year ago, someone stole some checks out of my truck. Had to close the account and open a new one. I gave my bank specific instructions that neither eBay nor PayPal has authorization to withdraw funds from the new account.

I have also removed all but about $300 from my PayPal account.

I'm NOT going down without a SERIOUS fight!

[hafoster]

"Now, there is absolutely no way on earth that the Post Office would ship something out with only one strip of electrical tape securing the bottom of the box."

You may have misunderstood how the tape got there

[billiards74]

USPS case number has been included in the case.

I'm on the phone with eBay now (on hold as usual) waiting for a supervisor in the High Dollar Claims Department.

Not looking good here. They're giving the buyer every excuse. I've pointed out to them that electrical tape is insufficent to secure the box, let alone a single piece. eBay insists that even though everyone along the way to the buyer would have caught such a blaitent breech of shipping protocol, the delivering postman could have stolen the item. So, if there even the smallest chance that someone else COULD have done it, side with the buyer. Doesn't matter how improbable or not plausable that scenario may be!

[katesmom48]

wait, this guy Had to sign for delivery right??  Hence the Postal Deliery person would have noted any opening of the box.. and there would have been documentation that the box looked to be tampered with. Also, If I ordered a 2800 dollar watch and found and empty box, I wouldn't threaten you with negative feedback, I WOULD AUTOMATICALLY give it and call ebay after giving you 30 seconds to make good. This guy is acting like a SCAMMER. 100% DO NOT REFund Yet at all, make sure you have some documentation from the postal department.

[a_c_green]

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@billiards74 wrote:

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

---

Of course it would, as you've brought unwanted attention on him, plus of course he has nothing to lose by being "enraged," as he'll definitely try any strategy that has any chance of making you back off.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the detail of that piece of electrical tape alone. It might be better to focus on the sheer preposterousness (Is that a word?) (Okay, yes, it is) of his main story, that the carrier and the recipient would go through the whole ritual of signing for a package without either one noticing that the package is clearly empty by weight, and has supposedly been sliced open on the bottom and then closed up again with electrical tape. I think when his local police detective learns those details, it'll raise both his eyebrows. (For a four-figure theft claim like this, I would definitely expect at least a basic level of investigation from both the postal inspector and local police.)

You may indeed end up eating the loss on this one. eBay may be of limited help; the USPS and local police might be a little better at putting pressure on the buyer to magically find the watch. Neither possibility feels really encouraging to me, but like the buyer and his supposed outrage, you have nothing to lose by following through on all your options open to you. Please keep us updated on this.

[shawk2011]

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@billiards74 wrote:

So, I sell (among other things) Rolex watches.

Last Tuesday evening, a customer having 60 or so feedbacks (all positive) makes a purchase for a $2700 Rolex. Promptly, Wednesday morning, I package up the watch, winding it, setting the time, and doing the final wipe-down to remove any residual fingerprints, and get it shipped out in a medium flat-rate box through the USPS.

The item was delivered on Friday at just at 3pm. Shows that it was signed for by the intended recipient. 

Friday night / Saturday morning (12:20 midnight), I get a message from the buyer saying he received an empty box. Naturally, I asked if he signed for it and if he himself opened it. No answer to those questions. I also asked for photos of EXACTLY what he received. He sends me 3 photos. 2 were of the inside of the box showing packing material, and one was of the top of the box where he cut through the shipping label and opened the box. In his initial statement he stated that he also "checked around the property and checked with the neighbors" to see if he could find the "merchandise".

So, being a Saturday, I could do nothing regarding opening a postal investigation. The watch was insured for the full sale price. So, just filing a claim with the PO wouldn't do much good without an official investigation.

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

After learning that I had opened a case with the PO, he decided, last night, to open an SNAD case with eBay. He also stated that he had already acquired a police report.

In one of his responses, he threatened "since I know your address, I will harass you". Adding, " I wouldn’t be surprised to receive negative feedback which will also ruin your credibility as a perfect seller for the next 12 months.". I know, I know. Both violations of the TOS. That will be discussed with eBay when customer service opens.

He has maintained that he has no intention of complying or cooperating with any investigation since I won't just issue him a refund.

After going through his feedback, I've actually looked at the types of items he's been buying. Get this... 90% of the items he's been purchasing have been for $0.99 or less. Some are auctions for a actual penny that is for local pick-up only; guaranteeing positive feedback upon completion of the $0.01 sale!

I have reported him and he has since been turned over to eBay's "Buyer Risk Assessment Team" due to evidence of suspicious or fradulent activity.

I still have no Idea as to how this is going to play out. 

Words of advice or encouragement anyone?????

---

Why would he have "checked around the property and checked with the neighbors" to see if he could find the "merchandise".  if the box arrived but was empty?

This guy obviously knows the ropes on ebay scams.

You should upload the P.O. report , and police report numbers into the case, also file an ic3 internet crime report and load that number  into the case as well. 

If you do have to refund, keep those report numbers and file an appeal with ebay, upload them all into the appeal case.

I hope ebay will do the right thing this time, good luck, and please let us know what happens.

[ymeagainlord]

Looks like the "buyer" took your listing challenge and not only decided to "man up" enough to get the watch but to go one step further and attempt to also get it for free.