Practicing Scenery

[untabubba]

As a new comer to "really serious" attempts at scenery I am rather timid about committing untried techniques to my "big" layout. I am considering building a kind of very small dummy platform, or a diorama, to practice things on BEFORE I try it on my main layout. This got me to wondering, and I thought it might make a good topic, how do you folks out there try new techniques and materials? Do you do mock ups, or do you just "throw caution to the wind" and put it right on your "pride and joy" platform? Inquiring rookie minds need to know! Marc

[untabubba]

Pete, I DID spread it with my fingers and there are STILL holes. Maybe I got it TOO wet or something. It's not a total problem, but it WILL have to be dealt with before I airbrush it....can you say "Holey mountain Batman"?? And from the pics in the album, I'm NOT the onliest one with this problem! and NO, I do NOT have the WS scenery manual! I just kind of "wing" these things most of the time! Maybe you think that's a little "half-fast" (the "clean" version), but that's the way I do. I don't have the cash to spend on books AND "stuff"! and "stuff" is WAY more FUN!! Marc

[ginzokid]

Marc, You can make a thin coat of Hydrocal plaster to apply over the whole surface of the cloth. This is called creating "Hard Shell Scenery". Or you can use Sculptamold, which is thicker,more like paper mache, to cover the bare spots and create hills and such. Did you use two layers of plaster cloth? This solves a lot of problems. Actually, once you paint your base color coat of paint, some of the holes will disappear and they surely will disappear once you start applying ground foam on the top of it. In other words, holes are normal and OK. Peanut butter also works for hole filling. Or cream cheese. Ask the parrot. He knows. And spend the $10 on the WS scenery book or get Dave Frary's scenery book. Pete

[untabubba]

Pete, I will get Frary's book. I was browsing it at the LHS a while back. No NO NOOO I can't put peanut butter in the holes!! The parrot will eat the darn mountain!! We JUST got him back under control...you know the trapeze "incident" really set him off!! And cream CHEESE?? FUGGEDABOUDIT!! Too many calories and cholesterol! Can't have a FAT mountain!! Okay, so hydrocal IS, essentially, plaster and sculptamold is paper mache? Got it! Marc

[trmwf]

Don't forget the toothpaste boys! It makes a great hole filler. Been using it for years to fill in all those nail holes in the walls before painting. Yes Marc, holes are normal even with two layers of plaster cloth no matter how much you try to cover them with the allocated plaster. Like Gramps says, they will go away very easily when the time comes. I wonder if I was to make one of those holes a little bigger then put some catnip in it if I could "seal" the wifes cat inside my mountain?? Me and the cat DO NOT get along. Mike

[ginzokid]

Mint toothpaste makes the whole forest smell fresh like mountain air!!!! I'll send my dog over Mike. She's not much bigger than a cat, but with her Irish temper and her terrier background.....you could have natural fur covered hills right before your very eyes. Marc, There is hydrocal and hydrocal light. Get the light stuff. Goes farther and weighs less too. There is also Celluclay. Again a paper mache type product. Ain't it fun to be learnt? Gizmo

[janesew]

Just another note. If you are using different types of plasters and plaster cloth in the same area, be aware that they all have different absorption rates, shine and resistance. When you are using the "wet" method of painting or staining rock, the colour will look quite different over each type of plaster and show up any patchwork. You can get around this by creative placement of foliage, experiment with over-painting etc. Just something to keep in mind whilst you work. Also... KEEP YOUR HYDROCAL STORED IN A VERY TIGHT DRY CONTAINER. The stuff actually can go bad. Moisture is the enemy. The Dust from Hydrocal can kill a vacuum cleaner. (It doesn't like loco motors much either.) Do all your mixing and pouring away from the layout and try to keep the sanding on the layout to a minimum! (especially if you are doing patchwork on a layout well under way with track) You don't have to be this fussy but "an ounce of prevention..." Fussy Fred

[ginzokid]

Fred, That's why I seal the plaster with a base coat of a cheap latex paint in a ground color. Then, when I come back to "zip texture" (Marc is going to ask), I put the color I want over the base color and add my ground foam. (Marc, I just told you what "zip texturing" was. Ground foam or ballast or rocks or any other scenic material applied directly to wet paint.) Fast and easy and can be added to with additional layers of different textures by spraying matte medium over the existing texture and adding foam or gluing in large clumps of foliage or trees etc. Experiment people! Fred is right about the plaster. It will find moisture you never knew existed where ever you store it. I use zip-lock bags and then put it inside Tupperware. BURP! Pete

[jamajack]

Pete & Dot, I try to get my molds upwards of 1/8" to 3/16" plus thick. You will still find they are still quite flexible even at that thickness. Another way to set a new mold if your outside finish on the new mold is not as smooth as you would like,leave the item in your mold and make a small, almost tight fence around it and pour a thin layer between rubber and the fence and then pour your mold. Then you break up the fence and the thin layer and remove your item. For the next pour start again with a new tight fence. Maybe about 1/4" all around the mold. The fence could be of wood or heavy cardboard. Jack 49

[untabubba]

Okay folks here we go! Remember, I'm the guy with the "holey" plaster cloth mountain? Well, in my travels today, I stopped by the LHS. They did NOT have the 3% WS Riser set I wanted! Drat! Then, I asked the guy IF WS Hydrocal is the same thing as Plaster of Paris. He kind of said something about them being "similar". ARE THEY THE SAME THING???? Anyways, at $7.50 for TWO lbs, I thought I'd do a little "comparison shopping". (I'm a VERY "thrifty" guy!) At the True Value, DAP Plaster of Paris (dry mix) was $2.99 for FOUR lbs. SOOO, naturally I bought the P.o.P. at True Value. My plan is to make a thin slurry and "overcoat" my holes. Did I screw up, or make a good call? Will my slurry plan work? Marc

[janesew]

Marc, They are similar. Hydrocal is a lot harder when cured. I've used both and, if cost is an issue, then you will be fine with the plaster of Paris. I'm sure someone else here can give you a more detailed answer. I used Hydrocal because I could get some from work. When I needed to buy my own I bought Plaster of Paris. The slurry method you described is recommended in several books. You can even sculpt and cut rock formations as it sets up! Put down a dropcloth - that stuff is muder to get out of carpet Fred - cheap and cheerful

[ginzokid]

Marc, I'm not sure of the properties of Plaster of Paris except that it gets hot while curing I believe and is a lot more brittle than Hydrocal which does not seem to put out so much heat and is stronger. I use the Light Weight Hydrocal from WS as it really is lighter in weight. Good for rock molds and other castings. I think that regular hydrocal is really a finely ground gypsum plaster. Lately, since it is hard to get the hydrocal up here, I have been using good old "mud". You know. Drywall compound. A 15lb. bucket, premixed. costs me $7. There is one drawback, even though is cheap, cracks from shrinking. But you know what? I'm not worried about it because the paint and ground foam actually do cover the sins. I think you are worrying too much about the small stuff. Look at my background to the On30 engine shots and you will see the somewhat finished mountains with foam and trees from the old N scale layout. There were a ton of holes in the plaster gauze. I'll make sure the pictures are there. You can make a "slurry" but stick to the water and dry mix proportions on the instructions. Too thin and it will have no strength, too thick and it will crack when it finally dries and be powdery on the surface. If you really want a thicker coating, use "Celulite" or "Sculptamold", the paper products I mentioned before. Relax Marc. You are working way too hard at trying to be perfect the first time out. Pete

[janesew]

Oh, one more thing!! When you are applying your slurry to the plaster cloth already on your layout, make sure you WET the cloth thoroughly before you put on the slurry. If the cloth is dry it will pull the moisture out of the Plaster of Paris and it will not set up and cure properly and will crumble and create dust later. The plaster (or Hydrocal) needs the water to cure (like cement). Fred Hi Pete!

[untabubba]

Relax Marc. You are working way too hard at trying to be perfect the first time out. Pete, It's a MAJOR character flaw!! I HATE being "wrong" or making "stupid" mistakes. Besides, it's something to talk about and I was wondering what you: A.) thought of my choice and plan and B.) use / do yourselves. Down the line I'm SURE I'll try ALL of the various mediums, just to see how they work AND how they differ. I just wanted to know if the LHS was a blatant rip-off, but you guys are confirming that they are, in fact two different things. Thanks Marc

[janesew]

I understand how you feel about mistakes, brother!! Me too. The LHS is not really trying to rip you off. Hydrocal is a MUCH better product and they are getting it from WS and who knows how many hands it goes through before they get it and package it in small convenient amounts. For your project the Plaster of Paris is fine. That's what most modellers used before Hydrocal or even Drywall compound (mud) was invented. Just want to let you know... I hear ya brother! Being afraid to make mistakes has really @#$%'ed me up and interfered with a lot of fun. Fred

[ginzokid]

After you have thoroughly wet your plaster cloth with a spray bottle as Fred said, you can then put a second layer of plaster cloth over the first and smooth into the holes in the new cloth. Then, instead of a finishing coat of plaster of any kind, try two heavy coats of cheap returned paint from the hardware store. I get the browns or greens that are miss matched for about $4 a gallon here. Considering that a gallon of good latex costs $32 here, that is a bargain. I put one coat on to seal the plaster. Then I can take my time with the second coat. The second coat becomes the wetting agent that I then sprinkle my first coat of ground foam onto. It sticks to the wet paint and I'm off and running to the world of scenery. Oh, and the holes magically disappear. It's called "zip texturing". Sound familiar? Clinchfield. Pete