Advice please. Suspect its fake but cannot prove so ebay will close in seller's favor.

[veechan23]

I suspected a dress I received was fake.  I explained to the seller with clear HQ photos of why the details, stitching, color, and fabric of the dress were incorrect.  She was insistent it is authentic but could not provide an invoice.  I've seen, felt, and tried on the real one before.  This dress has a weird smell, the fabric is not silk even though the real one is 100% silk, and it does not have the dry clean/composition care tag that are inside all of the brand's dresses.  When I brought this up, she then told me she purchased it at an outlet as a sample/protoype piece and sample pieces do not have care labels.  

I don't believe this brand releases their sample design dresses to the public market but I can't disprove this claim either.  I contacted the brand via call and email.  The US customer service girl on the phone said she doesn't know anything about this and has not heard of it before but cannot confirm since the seller claimed she bought it from an outlet in Australia.  The brand emailed me back that it is not a genuine product and recommend I do not buy from this seller again but eBay cannot accept this email as proof. 

I posted on a forum about how to spot fakes for this brand and others have said it's a replica.  I'm at a loss since eBay does not see this as valid evidence.  I read before that eBay says if there are strong indicators an item is not authentic, then I am protected under their money back guarantee.  Am I though?  I don't feel protected. 

I opened a return for refund and selected the reason "doesn't seem authentic" because I could not find an "item not described" reason from the options available.  The brand says they cannot authenticate the dress even if I brought it in-store because I did not buy it through them.  An eBay reps on the phone told me the return case will close in the seller's favor as I cannot authenticate it.  From there I can appeal with the reason item not as described to force the seller to pay for the return shipping label.  

What if this seller creates a shipping label that has the slowest imaginable delivery time from Australia to the US in the hopes it will get lost or returned to me?  What if she has me ship it back to a fake address?  Is this possible?  From here, can anything go wrong?  I have no idea how this will play out anymore.  

Kindly,
Frustrated buyer

[missjen831]

@veechan23 Why were you calling customer service? It is totally unnecessary. The rep you spoke to is terribly misinformed. The buyer never has to prove anything. All you need to do is file the return request for the counterfeit dress and if the seller doesn’t approve the return, ask eBay to step in after 3 business days. eBay does not get involved and look at the evidence and decide who is telling the truth. You will win the case. As long as you return to the address on the return label, eBay will force a refund. If this was an international purchase, no label will be issued. You have to have the seller send you the money through PayPal to buy a label. If they won’t, contact eBay and tell them the seller won’t pay for return shipping. Good luck!

[veechan23]

Correction: I would be shipping it to Australia from the US.  I paid $30 Australian dollars to have it shipped here.  I would expect the cost to be the same from here to Australia.  I asked eBay reps on call but they said the seller can choose any means and any carrier that they want. 

I would prefer to ship this back USPS international with tracking.  I have no idea what this sellerl might select.  Do I have to suck it up if they select and pay for a shipping label with the worst possible and slowest delivery option?

[veechan23]

Hi @missjen831

I was trying to understand how to proceed.  Tlhis is actually my first return through eBay ever.  I tried reading eBay polices on returns and protection prior to purchasing.  But it was a dress I wanted that was sold out in stores.  I'm not an active eBay buyer either so I just called to get more information really.

The seller beat me to it and asked eBay to step in.  Since she escalated the case, the rep said I can appeal and the seller cannot appeal after it closes in her favor.  

This was an international purchase.  

Awesome thank you so much for that information!  I thought the seller would send me a label.  Okay I will report to eBay if she does not send the money through PP.

[veechan23]

Perhaps because the reason I chose was "doesn't seem authentic" I had to wait 7 days instead of 3 days to work things out with the seller before eBay would step in.

[veechan23]

"Your case was placed on hold temporarily. We will get back to you with an update by Jul 31, 2018.

eBay Customer Support Comments:
We need written confirmation from the manufacture or a law enforcement to confirm if the Item is authentic or not."

This seems crazy to me.  I had to wait 7 days for eBay to step in, 48 hrs for a response, then they put the case on hold.  I explained I have no means to do so but they explained all they can do now is close the case in 5 days in the seller's favor since I cannot authenticate and my only recourse is to appeal.

I am still within the 48 hour window for eBay to step in.  I don't understand why they can't lift the hold and force the seller to pay return shipping seeing as it was not as described (claimed sample but not described as one in listing).

[missjen831 · Accepted solution]

They can't force the seller to pay for return shipping because its an international transaction. The only way they can force it is on domestic transactions because ebay just issues the label and bills the seller for it. Ebay can't issue an international label so.....the buyer has to attempt to collect the money from the seller upfront and then get ebay involved if the seller doesn't pay. You get a refund without returning if the seller doesn't come up with a label or send the money through paypal.

Did you get a police report? If so, upload it and you'll win when ebay decides the case on 7/31. IF you should lose, you can file with paypal. Make sure you are enrolled in the return shipping program so that you can submit your shipping receipt and get reimbursed for the return shipping cost. You can ship the dress to australia via first class international package for around $16 I believe. Unless its big and heavy!

[albertabrightalberta]

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@veechan23 wrote:

"Your case was placed on hold temporarily. We will get back to you with an update by Jul 31, 2018.

eBay Customer Support Comments:
We need written confirmation from the manufacture or a law enforcement to confirm if the Item is authentic or not."

---

What is the brand of dress? Is it the Zimmermann dress for which you left positive feedback for the seller? (That might be a problem for you!)

Are there any professional authentication services that do that brand? Most manufacturers don't authenticate and police officers likely aren't expert in a brand and won't provide a report for a supposedly fake dress purchased on ebay! 

I don't know the brand and have no idea whether it's counterfeited although I doubt it. 

If you're comparing details of a completely different style of dress, even if the same brand, that's not a valid comparison. You have to compare apples to apples. 

Based on what I see in the listing, I don't see anything indicating that dress is fake. 

[city*satins]

You can ship the dress to australia via first class international package for around $16 I believe.

If it's a Zimmermann dress, I expect the buyer paid a lot of money for it and will want to send it with tracking. I'm not sure whether USPS First Class International will link to the Australian postal system to provide online proof of delivery. If not - that would be a problem.

If the buyer's points of concern are valid (not really silk, and the missing inner label) that is a really deadly sign of a fake Zimmermann. This brand is heavily counterfeited, and the fact that it's made in China doesn't help, as it means that every gosh-darned design is sitting in China where security in factories to prevent copying/theft is very weak.   

Personally, I would say that once (if) a return is approved, the buyer should use a tracked method, even if it means paying out of pocket.  Compared to the cost of the item, it's worth it. 

It the appeal is not won by the buyer, she still has the option of claiming through Paypal (if that's how it was paid for) or through her credit card carrier (if the payment was funded either directly or indirectly through her credit card)

I noticed that  at least one of the sellers she left positive feedback for for a Zimmermann, is NARU.  If that was due to SNAD/counterfeit cases, but that's NOT this particular seller, and it sounds as if it's not, it weakens the buyer's credibility as being able to discern authentic from counterfeit and strengthens the seller's argument.

This being a high-ticket item, would have gone through a different escalation and appeal process - which adds to the uncertainty of the final outcome.  

[veechan23]

@albertabrightalberta
Hi yes this is a Zimmermann dress but not that one.  I have not left any feedback for this as the case is still open.  

I did compare apples to apples.  I showed photos of the real one and how it's supposed to look with photos of the fake one with close ups of the details that are incorrect (i.e., stitching close up, size tag close up, non-elasticized non-scrunchy sleeve cuff close up, no loop sewn into the dress to attach the waist string to the dress).  It's itchy, not silky, it feels like a nylon bath body scrub, and a poor imitation of silk-chiffon rather than silk-georgette.

Majority of my zimmermann dresses are from reputable online retailers and I would say I'm familiar with this brand to know when something is fake.  I recently bought a few on here trying to get some pre-owned and they have all been great transactions too.  I was very careful asking for pictures and making sure the tags were right.  But this person just lied all over.     

I called back and forced eBay to close the case in the seller's favor for not authentic.  They will let me appeal for SNAD instead and assured me I will win the SNAD case.

[veechan23]

@city*satins
Hi there! 

Thanks so much for your response!  I really appreciate everyone's input on this.  I honestly thought this would be a simple return, and it has been such a demoralizing turnout in the seller's favor based on my not authentic claim.  This person is an asian seller too which screamed so many red flags once I found out (name on shipping info on package).  eBay assured me I can appeal and can change the reason for the return to item is not as described instead so I can still return it for a refund even if I can't prove authenticity.

Yes, I paid through Paypal but I had called them too and they said to let eBay handle it first and don't reach out to them until the case is closed with eBay.  

What is NARU?

[veechan23]

Ah never mind "no longer a registered user."  Gotcha.

I remember this.  I don't doubt this person's authenticity though even if she isn't a user anymore though since I bought a Zimmermann from her too a few months ago.  This seller told me she was selling it for someone else and the care tag dry cleaning materials were an exact match to the materials listed on the official site and it had a button sewn into the label which I've noticed on a lot of their recent items.  Even the dresses I bought through Saks had this same button attached in the color of the dress's print.  

[hafoster]

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@city*satins wrote:

You can ship the dress to australia via first class international package for around $16 I believe.

If it's a Zimmermann dress, I expect the buyer paid a lot of money for it and will want to send it with tracking. I'm not sure whether USPS First Class International will link to the Australian postal system to provide online proof of delivery. If not - that would be a problem.  

Personally, I would say that once (if) a return is approved, the buyer should use a tracked method, even if it means paying out of pocket.  Compared to the cost of the item, it's worth it.

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When the seller pays for return shipping --

the seller is responsible for delivery:

- tracked or untracked,

- delayed or undelivered.

Buyer gets refunded in all those eventualitities: That's eBay policy.

If you choose to [PayPal funds to your buyer for] an untracked return label, your buyer will not be required to provide proof of delivery of the return if eBay is asked to step in and help, and you will be responsible for the reimbursement amount.

@veechan23

However, if the buyer foots the return postage --

eBay holds the buyer responsible for return delivery: That's eBay policy.

[veechan23]

@hafoster
Oh wow good to know! Thanks so much!! None of the eBay reps I talked to informed of this.  They only said that as long as it shows it delivered, I'll be refunded.

eBay told me the same thing as jen_proudleowife that because it is an international purchase from Australia to US, the seller will have to deposit the price of the return label in my Paypal so I can purchase the shipping label.  I definitely want tracking.

Calling eBay reps has been such chaos with misinformation.  The first rep told me I have to wait 10 days to close the case.  I accepted that response and they decided to call again.  This rep said she can close it now but that I can't appeal until July 24.  The case is closed now and there was an appeal button.  I clicked it, gave the phone call reference numbers, and it says I'll hear back in 48 hours.  

With this return, I never know if I am clicking the right button.

[city*satins]

Thanks hafoster!  You're way ahead of me on policies!

Appreciate the info.