Bakelite or plastic - 2 questions

[671013364270]

How do you know if a button is bakelite or plastic?? Is bakelite more collectable??

[antlercarv]

Look for a group I just joined called Bakelite besotted. I the top category, Love that bakelite, you find the following post. This is just a post, and may or not be gospel, but you shoould check out that discussion, in total. Reposted follows: charyl (2641 ) 11/02/05 06:28 PM (#21 of 25) Hi everyone! I don't want to upset or offend anyone, but I would like to share some of the information I have accumulated through years of collecting and experimenting. Here is how I test to find out what kind of plastic I have. I place the piece under hot tap water for about 30 seconds and smell it. If it smells like: Phenol or formaldehyde = bakelite Camphor or vinegar = celluloid Burnt milk = French bakelite Burnt hair = horn Burnt rubber = vulcanite Piney = amber Mildew = vegetable plastic Lucite and other later plastics have no smell. Although I do not use the hot pin test on the aforementioned natural and synthetic resins, I do use it in an inconspicuous place on gutta percha, which also smells like burnt rubber. The hot water test is not good for gutta percha, since the water will lighten the usually deep brown color. FAKELITE: I recently purchased two pieces of fakelite. The sellers claim that it will test up with 409, but it didn't. I tried the hot water test and that didn't work either. I have been offered refunds, but the pieces are rather nice, and I didn't go overboard on the price, so I am keeping them as examples. I mostly buy the pins and have noticed that a lot of the fakelite pins have pinbacks similar to the ones found on the back of Lea Stein pins. I sent a picture of one of these to Karima Parry, and she agreed that the pinback does not look right. She also warned me that sellers who hide the bidders IDs is doing this so that others cannot warn them that they are not bidding on the genuine article. Since I am always wanting to learn more about the new reproduction bakelite (fakelite), I would appreciate any information anyone can give me on the subject. If I can find a chemist to analyze it, I would like to do that. My email address is: charylee@verizon.net. As far as the newly worked vintage bakelite, I love this jewelry. Teresa, Jim Foltz, and many others are fantastic artists. I tried my hand at carving it and believe me, it is not an easy thing to do. Thanks for taking the time to read my entry.

[antlercarv]

I recently aquired some Mirro cookware. When I tested the handles with 409, I got a result which seemed to indicate baklite. Upon cutting, and hot pin/hot water testing, it seems to be galalith (French bakelite). I can send a picture of the bottom of one pot with identifying marks, Mirro, UL listed, etc. Can anyone tell me where I can use this info to identify the material, or the age of the cookware? Thanks, Todd The Carver

[svengali]

I don't think the hot water test is really that good for testing vintage plastics. For one thing, hot water can ruin celluloids. French Bakelite is an overused term for a plastic type called "Casein", it's a milk based protein plasic also called "Galalaith" in Europe (mostly the UK). Many serious button collectors have learned how to test using a hot point tool with a pointy end. This tool was made for wood burning art (pyrography) and is effective in testing plastics. Of course care is required and lots of practice to make sure big holes are not burned into the material being tested. Celluloid has a very low melt point and this is why practice and some idea of what plastic is being tested is useful before taking the hot point to buttons. Bakelite will hardly leave any kind of mark which is why this test is so useful. Right away it can be identified simply by the way the hot needle hardly phases this thermoset plastic. For as many collectors as there are in the world, there are just as many testing methods and we all have our favorites. I prefer accuracy rather than guesswork and refuse to use harsh household chemicals on my vintage plastic buttons. There is evidence that chemicals such as 409 and Scrubbing Bubbles can produce residue and cause spots plus underlying damage not readily noticable. I have seen many bakelite buttons with strange spots on them which I do feel came from harsh chemical testing. If you must use these harsh chemicals, be absolutely sure to clean every bit off them. As far as your cookware handles, since this is a button chat group, I'd perfer that question go to another group discussing wider issues such as vintage plastics in general. Thanks.

[svengali]

On the subject of vintage plastics. Even long time collectors who think they know bakelite can be fooled. I won this batch of buttons recently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6254563562 Each has a small melty test hole on the back. If the seller had recognized that bakelite will never show a melty test mark since it's so tough against heat (hot needle testing in particular), it would have been nice to know that or see closer views of the back to show the testing marks on every button. This would have told me ahead of time that the buttons were likely celluloid, which is what they turned out to be. Still very cool "double cut" buttons which are desirable and quite "bakelite looking" but not bakelite. I don't blame the seller because they really look like bakelite until I saw them in person, too light in weight and too shiny on the surface but to a novice, I can sure see how she thought they might be bakelite. My beef with keyword spamming is not againt sellers like this, but those who are informed that their buttons are not bakelite but persist in listing them with that word in the title or ad text. That's just deceptive marketing. -Carol-