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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

I paid $70.00 for a Snap-On ratchet that was listed as "used."  The price seemed appropriate for this used ratchet.  I looked over the pictures carefully and did not see any problems except for some chrome missing in spots.  That is common for used tools.

 

What I received was a ratchet that is so worn, it is unsafe to use.   I immediately contacted the seller, wanting to return the item with me paying the return shipping cost. 

 

The seller refused to allow me to return the item (doesn't do returns) so I opened up a case, but was confused on how to open it up.  The item was used, so I figured I couldn't do the "Item not as described" case.  I simply wanted ebay's help to return the item.

 

The case was closed in the seller's favor because the seller convinced ebay that I knew the item was "used" and that I could exchange the ratchet for a new Snap-On ratchet under Snap-On's warranty.  That is a lie, as Snap-On doesn't consider worn out tools as a warranty issue.  The seller also claimed that I should have asked them more questions about the item and also requested more pictures, etc.  In other words, I bought a flea market or yard sale level item on ebay and paid for a tool that I assumed was usable because of the price the seller was asking for it.  Apparently, ebay didn't think the listing was fraudulent under their guidelines.

 

Ebay suggested that I open up a case under Paypal, which is what I will do next.

 

Finally to the question.  Does ebay not have some sort of policy governing used items as to the level of "used?"  Many e-commerce sites make the seller rate the used item, using a 1-10 scale.  It seems like, under ebay, I can pass off unusable junk as simply "used" and get away with sticking it to unexpecting buyers like this seller did me, simply refusing returns (even if the buyer wants to pay for the return).   All they can do is leave me negative feedback.  In the meantime, I am laughing all the way to the bank. 

 

Unfortunately, I did not use a credit card for this purchase.  Shame on me, as I knew better.  So, it looks like the loop-hole for abominable sellers is to hope buyers don't do any further steps than to hope ebay resolves the issue?  Ebay told me I should have opened up the case under "Item not as described."  Really?  So, how do I report a used item as not being a used item?  So, I should have opened up a NAD case, then stated the item was too used to be useful?  Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I found that to be a bit confusing.

 

So, what would be the ultimate solution to guard against deceitful sellers...require them to rate the used item on a 1-10 scale of how used it is to try to make things more honest?  Why hasn't ebay considered using this rating approach for used items?

________________________________________________________________

I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

@zzwill51,

 

What you seem to be missing in all of your replies is HOW ebay's Money Back Guarantee (MBG) works, and how the Returns process works. 

 

You already admitted to missing the part of the returns policy about what used condition means.

"An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections".

 

Since there was no mention in the listing that the ratchet may slip or not catch when the dial/thumbswitch is moved, or it may disconect while ratcheting,  and the seller omitted to say that, it was not as described!!!

 

You seem stuck on how ebay deals with disagreements between the buyer and seller and who they will side with.

The answer to that in 99.9% of the cases is THE BUYER.  Those of us who have been on these boards for any length of time, have seen over and over where sellers are responsible for accepting a return, even when the buyer admits being wrong, not having read the description, decided they didn't want it, broke it, etc. etc. etc!!!  It rarely matters what the seller claims, they have very few protections from SNAD disputes.  

 

The MBG policy overides any sellers no returns policy when not as described is claimed. Had you selected Not As Described originally when you requested the return, if the seller had refused, you could have asked ebay to step in and escalated the Return to a Dispute.  ebay wouldn't have cared what the seller claimed at that point unless they had mentioned the ratchet slipped occasionally in the descripton. 

Actually the best way to deal with an item you feel is not as described is to contact the seller, not start with a return request, and if the seller doesn't agree or tells you to pound sand, open a SNAD dispute not a return request. If they follow through promptly they do not get a defect. 

 

FYI.

As far as Snap-On or Mac tool truck warranty quotas go, it depends on their sales, how many they are limited to.  The trucks that have several large dealerships or shops on their route, have a higher number of allowable warranty claims, than the drivers who deal with fewer dealerships or mostly with small shops.

 Sometimes you can get a free repair kit for a worn out ratchet.  I got one for a 1/2" ratchet that was part of a (Case Tractor Program) tool set so the tools in the set would all match, otherwise I would have received a Snap-On stamped replacement.  Buying the New Holland or Case, program, Snap-On tools is a great way to save money BTW.

 

 

"THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FOOLPROOF, BECAUSE FOOLS ARE SO DARNED INGENIOUS!" (unknown)

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Message 24 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

used still implies usable.

 

there is a whole category for parts and salvage.



"Believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything" Colin Kaepernick the new face of NIKE
Message 2 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

Yes, assuming the seller is honest.  But, without a rating system, how can ebay be consistent in deciding cases?  This is exactly what happened to me...receiving junk (nothing even usable for parts), but the seller stated otherwise, that in their opinion, the item was still usable.  So, it appears to come down to the seller's word against the buyer's word.  I can remember when ebay gave more consideration to the buyer (especially when the buyer was willing to pay for return shipping).

 

But, this case was closed before I even had a chance to state my case with ebay (must allow 3 business days to try to resolve things with the seller).  I did that, and the seller wouldnt budge.  They basically just wanted me to shut up and go away after giving me the shaft.

________________________________________________________________

I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Message 3 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

So take it to a Snap On truck in your town and they will fix it for free and if the chrome is that bad they will replace the entire tool. Cost less than postage to send it back

Message 4 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

All you had to do was open a case for not as described. The seller would have been required to pay for the return. Used does not mean broken or unusable. A used item is supposed to work as intended. If the ratchet was unusable, then it was not as described.

 

The buyer protection policy works well. You have to know how to use it, though.

The easier you are to offend the easier you are to control.


We seem to be getting closer and closer to a situation where nobody is responsible for what they did but we are all responsible for what somebody else did. - Thomas Sowell
Message 5 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

You are absolutely correct.  In hindsight, I should have opened a case under "Item not as described."  But, I became confused, looking at what ebay said under that category.  It wasn't broken, or a different brand, a counterfeit item, etc.  It was a used item, as stated in the description.  So, that is where the confusion came in.  I was about "how used" the item was. 

 

At the time, I didn't see any ebay explanation for that sort of item.  So, I simply requested a refund, offering to pay for return shipping.  This is what took ebay out of the loop, I guess, as it seemed to be all up to the seller to accept or refuse a return.

 

With Paypal, I will definitely state to them the item was not as described and that I made a mistake opening a ebay case, using the wrong category for the return.  I'm still kicking myself for not using my credit card.  Got complacent.  Lesson learned the hard way!  It won't happen again.

________________________________________________________________

I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Message 6 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

That is what the seller told me to do.  My response to the seller was that I pay for the return so he could take it to his local Snap-On guy and get a new ratchet.  He could then get more money on ebay for it, selling a new one.  I knew better.  Just to cover my bases, I contacted my local Snap-On agent.  He told me that there is a quota limit that he must stay under regarding returns.  If there is a defect in materials or workmanship, then the warranty is intact.  Also, YOU MUST BE THE ORIGINAL OWNER.  So, Snap-On's warranty isn't any better than any other warranty. 

 

Buying a flea market or yard sale item for a few bucks, then trying to exchange it for something new or even rebuilt was a practice that was tolerated years ago.  But, Snap-On isn't going to back a warranty that covers worn out tools.  You are expected to buy a new tool.

 

What guys sometimes do is purposely break the tool for warranty coverage if the tool is worn out and not covered under warranty.  I have a conscience and won't do something underhanded like that.  So, I ended up getting stuck with this worthless POS without any chance for an exchange.  Missing chrome is not part of the warranty coverage.  Missing chrome is part of the normal wear and tear for the tool.  Check with Snap-On if you believe I am in error.  Things and times have changed with them.  Their warranty now is a joke, IMHO.

 

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I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Message 7 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description


@zzwill51 wrote:

I paid $70.00 for a Snap-On ratchet that was listed as "used."  The price seemed appropriate for this used ratchet.  I looked over the pictures carefully and did not see any problems except for some chrome missing in spots.  That is common for used tool.   ..........

 

The case was closed in the seller's favor because the seller convinced ebay that I knew the item was "used" and that I could exchange the ratchet for a new Snap-On ratchet under Snap-On's warranty.  That is a lie, as Snap-On doesn't consider worn out tools as a warranty issue.  The seller also claimed that I should have asked them more questions about the item and also requested more pictures, etc. ........

 

The technique being used is to Blame the Victim

 

Good luck with your PayPal case.

 

 

  

 

 


 

Message 8 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

I am going to resist the temptation to refer to myself as a "victim." 

 

What I am trying to figure out is how ebay decides what used items are usable and what are unusable.  Without some sort of rating system, it seems to come down to the seller's word against the buyer's word.  Who's to say which one is more correct?  As a buyer, you are hoping that the seller is honest about the item they are selling...not being sneeky, deceitful, etc.  (especially when you are willing to pay for return shipping and seller refuses to allow a return).  It's like the seller's way of saying, "I stuck it to you.  Now shut up and go away."  In my seller's case, the best adjective I could find was "abominable."  After looking that word up, the definitions seem to fit the seller best.

 

So, the question still remains...without some sort of rating system, how does a buyer know when the seller is selling junk at a price that gives the buyer the sense that the used item is usable?  I also think that ebay needs to revise their "item not as described" category to include this sort of scenario so other dummies like myself don't get confused regarding opening up a case in the proper category.

 

Thank you for wishing me luck regarding initiating my Paypal case.  I can definitely see where e-commerce has more refinements to make regarding dishonest sellers and also dishonest buyers as well. I'm just thinking out loud that ebay should try to incorporate a rating system for used items.  Don't know if it would do any good, but at least it may offer a better resolution process for disputes.

________________________________________________________________

I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Message 9 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

When you opened a remorse return, since the seller had a no returns policy, they could decline it.

 

A Not As Describe return would have resulted in the seller having to provide you a return label - UNLESS you stated something in the return that was actually part of the description thus not being "not as described."

 

Used means used but works as intended.

Stripped, worn and damaged to make it unusable is For Parts/Not Working.  That would make is "no returns" policy enforceable.

 

When you look at the listing under Condition - click on that little question mark.  That tells you the eBay qualifications for the condition selected.

Message 10 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

That is a load of carp. Snapon warranty is lifetime for anyone not original owner and there is no limit or any other limitation. I have bought tons of Snapon tools at yard sales and garage sales and any truck I see will warranty them
Message 11 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

Yes, I understand that.  When I tried to open a case under "not as described," I became confused as I didn't see anything listed under the "not as described" requirements that fit my situation.  So, I screwed up opening the type of case I opened.  So, in that respect, my error. 

 

But, this got me to thinking about what latitude an item has for being "used."  I could have done what the seller suggested (asking detailed questions, requesting more detailed pictures, etc.) but from the listing description and the couple of posted pictures I looked at, the item appeared to be usable.  I became complacent, not even paying for the item with a credit card.  So, I was my own worst enemy for buying this item, then initiating a return, mainly because I thought the seller had some integrity.  But, on ebay, one cannot assume anything.  So, I must take responsibility for my errors.  Often, gaining wisdom comes with a price. 

 

I just hope more cases like mine surface so that ebay may take a look at a rating system.  At least, when a seller claims the item is usable, the rating should be a 5 or more, for example.  Anything below a 5 would be considered very used and questionable as to it being even usable.  I don't know if it would work, but I see this sort of thing on other sites...especially sites that sell used top end audio equipment. 

 

Hopefully, Paypal will be able to offer me some return help, since I screwed up on ebay and sealed my own fate.  Lesson learned.  I want ebay to look at their "item not as described" list and tell me which one of those explanations or requirements on the list fit my situation.  Maybe that would help me understand what I was not seeing.

________________________________________________________________

I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Message 12 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

The first problem I see with your rating system:  you say an item is a 6, I think it's a 5, and that doesn't take into consideration where I think it's a 10 and you think it's a 1.

 

How would eBay handle the dispute?  They're not going to examine the item -- with eBay's volume that's simply not practical.   It a buyer rates an item lower than the seller, does the buyer always get his money back?  Is the seller forced to reduce the price?  I see a  lot of money being spent producing probably the same results as today.

 

I'm not familiar with any site that uses this system, but I could guarantee they have only a fraction of the transactions on the "big two."

 

Your idea is interesting, but I can't see any way it's feasible.

Message 13 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

Ha!  Have you ever read the Snap-On warranty and what it states?  Maybe in the past you got away with that sort of thing.  But these days are different.   But then, maybe in your neck of the woods, you have much more latitude with the Snap-On guys.  In my area, not the case.

 

Simply stated, the Snap-On guys in your area probably allowed you some latitude because they wanted to make sure they got more tool buys from you.  We know how much mark-up the truck sales are, just to cover a lot of replacement stuff.  But, Snap-On is now keeping an eye on return quotas for each truck.  If the returns exceed the quota (especially if it involves a certain customer) red flags are raised.

 

So, post what the actual Snap-On warranty says...especially covering missing chrome or worn out tools.  Prove me wrong, in other words.

________________________________________________________________

I kept wondering why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.
Message 14 of 31
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Selling unusable items under the "used" description

@zzwill51

 

pretty clear description of what constitutes USED.

 

cut and paste from eBay:

 

An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

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