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Fighting with the USPS over ebay standard envelopes - Semi-Rigid vs. Top Loaders?
I've been in an ongoing battle with the local USPS as despite the ebay standard envelope allowing up to two top loaders, the local post office refuses to ship them if they have toploaders. I can pay extra at the post office for non-sortable, which I've done, but each time I do, tracking info is never updated and I get dinged in the metrics. Some people have also reported they never got them. The local PO has also sent back standard envelopes with toploaders if I've been the buyer. Our local USPS is very shortstaffed and I don't trust them with anything they can't just scan and throw into the pile. I've switched to either using lots, or single cards with first class shipping that eats into profits, but I have a host of lower-priced cards I can't compete with the standard shipping prices this way. I've been thinking of maybe using semi-rigid holders like Card Saver I instead of top loaders. I'm concerned about cards getting bent this way or damaged. I'm looking for thoughts and advice as I'm staring at a lot of cards without a great way to ship them in a way I'm confident they won't get damaged.
pokepursuit
·1 year agoHello all! I'm finding this thread after a Google search. We've had some issues with tracking using ESE and have had about 2 cards returned to us out of about 150 right now. Looking for some advice. We use 4.5x6.5 rigid mailers. We would then wedge a top loader between a foldable piece of cardboard (like you'd find from a sticker vending machine), and then taped. I was thinking of switching to rigid mailer -> team bag -> semi-rigid/card saver loader. Is this enough protection and would this provide enough wiggle room through the sorting machine?
lacemaker3
·1 year agoNO.
The envelope can't be rigid, so rigid mailers are right out.
If envelopes are being returned because they are non-machinable, they are probably too rigid.
If your envelopes are not being tracked, then they are non-machinable, and they are probably too rigid.
eSE only gets tracked if it goes through the machines. Sending them as non-machinable totally defeats the purpose. If you're going to do that, just put stamps on the envelope.
kh-adrian
·1 year agoHi everyone,
Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.
Thank you for understanding.
rainbowcomicsandcards
·2 years agoI have found when we send out cards we have it in a top loader and then in a folded piece of thinner cardboard and then use a piece of painters tape to tape it in the center of the envelope so it doesn't slide around and stays in the middle, since doing this have only had an issue with one envelope. We just use regular sized envelopes that are a little stronger (more for like a Birthday/Christmas card envelope). Also make sure when putting the labels on they are straight so they don't have any issue going through the meter mail machine.
gosumagic
·3 years agoHow is the card saver working out for you?
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·3 years agoThey don't work lots of damaged cards and still issues of wanting more postage
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·2 years agoHuge update Post Office agreed with eBay on the rules for these ESE shipments. Sat down with a postmaster yesterday. They are not honoring their deal and starting February 1st was told post offices in my area are going to start refusing ESE shipments. Fellow sports card sellers beware!! It will probably be every post office at some point.
1786davycrockett
·2 years ago@fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
"Sat down with a postmaster yesterday. They are not honoring their deal and starting February 1st was told post offices in my area are going to start refusing ESE shipments."
Since the eBay Standard Envelope is a contracted business mailing service between USPS and eBay (identical to millions of other contracted metered mail services throughout the United States), the post offices in your area will then be in violation of interfering with the delivery of legitimate contracted United States mail, which is a Federal offense.
Contact your Congressional representative, and also send a registered letter of complaint to the Postmaster General in Washington, D. C. In addition, contact the United States Attorney General to report an interference and interruption of interstate mail by USPS employees. Also notify the media representatives in your town (newspapers, TV, radio, blogs, etc) that your local post offices are conspiring to violate legitimate contracted USPS mailing services.
Don't be quiet about this: your local post offices sound like they plan to deliberately interfere with the legitimate delivery of United States mail, and that's a very serious Federal offense.
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·2 years agoThanks for the response. They have been messing with mine already for about the last month. I've been getting stacks back many with the required $1.11 marked as can only ship USPS Ground Advantage. Funny thing is many of them are under the thickness and technically should have only had to pay .63. Also in these stacks were shipments sent by other sellers in my area so they aren't even paying attention to who's shipping things. Lol. Lawsuit is being filed Monday morning.
no-plain-white-envelopes
·3 years agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8zCVITRTI&t=370s
check this out you can do either Toploader or Card Saver
slyders_finds
·3 years agoI think this is a USPS meeting they had to cutdown on workload. I have sold trading cards with no problem until recently. And it was all within Specs. I just think the Employee was having a bad day(or overzealous new employee) and took it out on my little envelope.
jessiegarren
·3 years agoI put any-TYPE of card top-loader (even RIGID) into a folded Card-Stock (*not* Paper)...tape it in-place....fold card-stock over it once (maybe also a good large index card would work)....and tape the folded card-stock together....and it makes it SMOOTH and very machine-able.....3 years of doing it and never a kick-back.
wolfscards
·3 years agoBeen using ebay standard envelopes for approximately one year with only a few problems. Did have two returned when the tear open tags got bent and were greater than 1/4 inch. Since then I have been cutting the tags off and no further issues. I do run the envelopes through a roller to loosen them up to some degree. The current problem today is the address printed out during the shipment process may not be what is registered on USPS for delivery. I had a postal worker go verify the last two non delivery items in detail, and one was that the receipient was not registered at that address, and the other receipient now longer lived at that address. The scanning would reject the intransit move when this happens and no further tracking will be shown. The employee also stated the ebay envelope is considered to be metered mail, which means problem issues are stored in a separate work home until someone has time.
tripcrown
·3 years agoI know they don't get scanned at the PO. They get scanned somewhere else down the road, prolly at the first distribution center it arrives at. I'm able to ship with just the toploader in an envelope, no extra padding or protection, except for the topload is in a team bag. Many PO are not familiar with this label, and need some schooling on it.
1786davycrockett
·3 years ago@tripcrown
"Many PO are not familiar with this label, and need some schooling on it."
The ESE is simply one more example of USPS Metered Mail, which is used by hundreds of thousands of postal customers every day -- so it is not anything about which post offices "need some schooling."
The problems that exist with the ESEs seem to be largely resulting from eBay sellers either not making the envelopes FLEXIBLE enough, or attempting to mail contents which are HEAVIER than the the matching price on the meter (eg, a TWO ounce ESE can NOT be mailed at the metered price of 60 cents).
I've been using the ESEs for several years now, with no problems, no returns and no damaged contents.
murphy71605
·3 years agoI have sent many toploaded cards with only one being returned to me. No explanation was given why it was returned. I simply re-sent the card and it went through. I personally never ship a card that is thicker than a standard size card using this service. I use a folded piece of card stock paper (same thickness as a greeting card) and fold it and tape the sides with the toploaded and team bagged card inside. A regular invoice folded properly works as well but it is important the the card slide through the roller system without getting hung up. Always use a good quality regular envelope and NOT the semi-rigid ones they are promoting. These are way too rigid with a toploader inside even if under a 1/4". You should be able to run your thumb and forefinger across the the envelope without feeling a big bump that can get caught in the system. These have to be flexible enough to get through the sorting machines if you want any success with this service.
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·3 years agoI ship the exact same way as you do minus the invoice. The problem I am having is the people at the post office in my area know what is in the envelope. So they are considering it merchandise. I had absolutely no issues at all when just using a stamp. Going to deal with it as long as I can.
murphy71605
·3 years agoI would have a talk with the postmaster at that location and not a lowly clerk. It's none of their business what is inside the envelope as long as you are in compliance.
jbeasley4205
·3 years agoI work at a Postal Service processing facility in a major city. I have seen millions of letters get dumped on the conveyor belt and get processed. I only use cardsavers to ship my cards when shipping in PWE. Im too scared the toploaders will get ripped out of the envelope going through the rollers.
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·3 years agoI am having the same issue. Going back to USPS 1st class. eBay standard envelope should be classified on eBay as buyers risk if item shows up damaged or doesn't show up seller is not responsible. Post office in my area just sat on a bunch of mine dating back to last October. I just got them all back today. There is absolutely no reason when I paid the higher rate etc. On these. Almost 300 shipments wanting more postage. Most have already been refunded weeks and months ago. eBay you need to fix this.
pgallipeau
·3 years agoThe only real solution to this problem is to go to a different branch and see if they they're okay, then drop your ESEs off exclusively at their branch. I love the post office, but some branches are better than others (and some are just plain bad--I overheard once a post office worker tell a customer that they could use the free USPS Priority Mail boxes to ship First Class... lol).
murphy71605
·3 years agoI think Cardsavers or Beckett sleeves would be perfect for this service especially when shipping two cards. The key to having any success with this service is to make the envelope look like any regular envelope. I drop mine off in the outgoing mail inside the Post Office and never bother with the clerks. I generally ship one card toploaded at the lowest rate and rarely have an issue. The envelopes should have enough flex to avoid postal workers from flagging them.
The post office takes a lot of heat for being the problem here but you don't have to look too hard to find sellers abusing this service. I see thick jersey cards being sold all the time using this service. You can even find people selling 180 pt. thick cards like the 2022 Topps Update batting helmet cards from blasters using this service which is insane. Any piece of mail going through sorting equipment needs flex and should be under 1/4".
krispykleen
·3 years agoI'll add that when I ship standard envelope, I use the #10 business envelopes and tri-fold a piece of printer paper. I put the card saver/top loader in a team bag and painters tape it to the folded paper for a bit more rigidity. Shipping 1 card that way will weigh no more than 0.8 ounces so you can go with the least expensive standard envelope option with a single card.
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·3 years agoDoesn't work here. On top of that semi rigid around here for a pack of 100 is almost 30.00. Doesn't make sense when charging free or 1.08 shipping postal rates are way to high. eBay shippers should be getting a huge discount since we are single handedly keeping USPS in business
krispykleen
·3 years agoI've sent hundreds in card savers within standard envelopes and not had one complaint about damage. I often alternate between that and normal top loaders when shipping 1-2 cards depending on my supply situation. I think you'll be fine. With that said, I've been able to send 2 top loaders in a standard envelope when I put them side by side and not stack them. Usually that will push you into the 2-ounce category for standard envelope, so be sure to pay for at least 2 ounces if you're going with more than one top loader.
goopiecrisp
OP3 years agoThank you - that is helpful. I'm considering buying card savers and using those instead of top loaders. The issue USPS has with toploaders is they said they are not flexible enough, despite being OK per the agreement between USPS and eBay on these. I don't think USPS trains their people very well on this. I've only ever had to send a single card so I'm sure they'd complain even more about two toploaders.
1786davycrockett
·3 years ago@goopiecrisp
"The issue USPS has with toploaders is they said they are not flexible enough, despite being OK per the agreement between USPS and eBay on these."
There is NO "agreement between USPS and eBay on these." The eBay Standard Envelope (ESE) is just another metered envelope, for which any business can apply. USPS treats the ESE in the same manner as it does all other metered mail, from the hundreds of thousands of other businesses which are permitted to use USPS metered mail. Thus, there is no special "training" required for USPS employees, and no additional "understanding". It is simple metered mail, which must conform to USPS metered mail specifications.
Unfortunately, eBay miscommunicated (or under-communicated) that items shipped inside the ESE must be flexible enough to rapidly flow throughout the entire machine roller system which USPS uses during the sorting process. Some of these machine rollers force envelopes to be bended nearly in half; thus, envelopes which are too rigid will clog up the machine roller systems, which causes back-ups in the feeding and sorting process. And those envelopes will then be re-categorized as "packages," and marked for "insufficient postage."
I'm not sure that anyone at eBay even comprehends what a "top-loader" means, or how it is constructed; but it seems very inflexible to me.
When I send cards or stamps using the ESE, I simply trim two pieces of cereal box cardboard (or canned soda cardboard) to a size slightly smaller than a small simple white envelope. I slide the two pieces of cardboard to fit snugly inside the envelope; then add the stamp (in a glassine envelope) or the card (in a simple plastic sleeve) in between the two pieces of cardboard. Seal, and add the ESE label. I've had no returns, and no problems with USPS, and no complaints from buyers about damaged items.
It's a simple rule with the ESE -- "Be flexible."
goopiecrisp
OP3 years agoI'm going by ebay's article on the subject https://www.ebay.com/sellercenter/shipping/ebay-labels-services/ebay-domestic-shipping-services/ebay-standard-envelope which states "Ship no more than 2 cards in top loaders". Call me crazy, but this implies a top loader is OK as long as it's no more than two cards. But you ship the card in just a penny sleeve? Is that typical for ESEs? Even if you're using cereal box cardboard for help, I'd be concerned about damage or negative feedback because it was not "protected enough".
1786davycrockett
·3 years ago@goopiecrisp
EVERY trading card and postage stamp which I have mailed (using the ESE as I have described) has arrived safely and without any reports of damages by buyers.
EVERY meaning ALL.
As I previously stated -- I do not believe that the eBay individuals who wrote the descriptions regarding the ESE, had ANY knowledge about top loaders -- how stiffly they were constructed, or even the actual definition of a "top loader." But any card collector must realize how inflexible top loaders are constructed, and that it would be quite a miracle for even ONE top loader to bend into a curving set of rollers, making nearly 90 degree turns at high speed. (Check out the USPS films on YouTube, to watch how actual USPS First Class letters are expected to race at high speeds through the machine rollers -- and then try to imagine a non-flexible top loader making that trip!)
It was wrong of eBay to suggest that sellers use "top loaders" with the ESE. I can only imagine that the eBay individuals who wrote the ESE mailing instructions misunderstood the difference between "card sleeves" and "top loaders." Not surprising, considering the mess that eBay has made in the past with "item specifics" in the fields of trading cards, postcards, dolls, pottery, action figures, books, records and so on.
Don't blame the post office -- USPS didn't write the specifications for the ESE.
That's all on eBay.
1786davycrockett
·3 years ago@goopiecrisp
Check out the video "How USPS Sorts Mail" on the internet to see the roller systems through which a standard USPS First Class letter must travel swiftly and without interruption -- and then try to figure out how an ESE containing a top loader would make the trip.
Not likely.
fortwaynesportscardscomicscollectibles
·1 year agoActually there is an agreement in place with USPS, as for flexibility top loader is more flexible than a credit card which is also sent meter mail in an envelope that 100 percent does not conform to USPS standards due to thickness and weight, for pennies on the dollar. The difference is on the ESE it states trading cards right on the envelopes, USPS knows it's merchandise therefore wants more money. Me personally I am starting to get away from ESE shipping, due to the rampant dishonest buyers claiming item never arrived, and extremely slow shipping times on these envelopes.
goopiecrisp
OP3 years agoSorry, non-machinable, not non-sortable. Coffee hasn't kicked in yet.
uc-things-uwant
·1 year agoIf would be nice to see eBay add a nonmachinable surcharge option, I'll normally add an ounce or two to the weight we I have several cards. So far I haven't had any problems. But I know from using ShipStation, that you can specially add the nonmachinable surcharge when you know it's rigid, so that gives me more piece of mind.